Reported by Le Monde that transfusion kits were found in Astana garbage, with 7 unique DNA fingerprints.

http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2009/1...84426_3242.html

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french-age...transfusion-kit

Sounds like the UCI will have to bring out the heavy artillery to cover up this one. I hope the "donations" are up to date.

It is most likely that the medical waste was for the support staff, as it is well known that Astana only hires staff with severe medical problems as part of their humanitarian mission

Hard to believe that a team run by the Hog would have this kind of problem, must be a set-up.

Who will not be invited to the 2010 TDF, Astana or the Shack?

Cue the tweets about The French Conspiracy and How The French Hate Me.

WOW. Could this finally be it? Months ago I assumed this story would die for lack of evidence, but matching DNA changes all that.

Tip for the Shack: start tweeting this--Scientists Learn to Fabricate DNA Evidence. I'm sure that's what happened.

Normally in cases like this, I would assume that privacy rules might prevent the UCI from sharing DNA data with the French (e.g., this put a serious kink in the FBI's attempts to hang Bonds). But since the whole purpose of collecting the data is for anti-doping efforts, I would hope that the rules are written such that sharing DNA in this case is okay. Anyone know what the passport contract with the riders permits?

Cyclingnews is already setting this up as another French vs. UCI conflict; I hope it doesn't come to that. I know basically nothing about French rules of evidence, but my impression has always been that it's much easier for a French judge to subpoena evidence than it is in the US. If the UCI refuses to share, is it likely that French authorities could go ahead with this anyway?

"Who will not be invited to the 2010 TDF, Astana or the Shack?"

Astana. RadShack will squirm out of it.

Exactly. This will be pinned on the 'evil Kazakhs' and the 'tainted two-time winner', who won't be there to prevent a certain 7-time winner from usurping his throne ... Back.

I am positively shocked... that anyone in the general vicinity of the Hog or the Saviour could be so careless. Lance's last gift to Contador? We all know Armstrong has no DNA, only enormous, American balls.

That would be amazing if they managed to link AC and failed to link LA--and that it was an intentional poison pill orchestrated by LA and the Hog. Hats off to LA and co if they managed to pull that off. As much as I dislike and distrust LA, I do enjoy the Machiavellian theater of it all.




It would probably be hard to pin on Astana, though, since 8 of their 9 TdF riders are now on Radio Shack. Unless Vino was following them along the route, tossing out transfusion bags for kicks. He did hold that press conference in Monte Carlo at the prologue...

You think? Valve is still talking up his 2010 plans. The passport business seems like a pipe-dream if you can't get a ban on DNA matching. Maybe I'm just impatient though and justice will prevail, hard to feel that way when he just won a vuelta though.



Is this a criminal matter? I can't imagine what could constitute a reasonable excuse for the UCI to deny access to their blood profiles. Stranger things have happened, I guess, sitting on a high horse and trying to let the "past be in the past" is easier when it's not criminal though.

Love that French "Merry Christmas." They are always masterful with their timing.

will this lead to AC being led up the mountain by team mate Valverde if they let him ride, or someone else on that team?

ACs got that get-out-of-jail card regarding doping in his contract; if he is not railroaded, and nothing of note found in his community chest, he could monopolize the Tour again, wearing spanish or maybe Quick Step team colors.

We better hope it is Astana.

Otherwise, if there is no RadioShack to talk about, this board will completely die from lack of anything to discuss.

"Doping in Cycling" could be in danger of becoming an oxymoron.

Dave.

Is the CN article an accurate translation of the LeMonde article? Anything left out in the CN article?

Will be spending Christmas running to the computer for the latest details. Happy holidays...

The cyclingnews story certainly implied that possession of blood bags falls under French drug laws, and the Le Monde story says that the case is being handled by the Deputy Prosecutor of Paris (and the Le Monde headline also uses the word "criminal," at least in the google translation). Like I said, I don't know anything about French law and whether they could subpoena the records from the UCI or subpoena individual riders to give blood. Maybe it's one of those situations where, as long as the riders don't return to France, the French authorities can't touch them, but as soon as they do, they can compel testing?



You're right that whether Valverde gets banned is still in the hands of the CAS, but the Italian federation was successful in banning him (pending CAS, but it did keep him out of the TdF). If matches were to happen here, the French would probably succeed in keeping riders out of the Tour, at least.

If AC were matched, the Spanish federation would probably protect him the same way they have Valverde--though the CAS will have ruled long before the Tour, and they could shut down the protection from national federations. I'd love to see how USA Cycling would handle a similar situation with their golden child...

But for Valverde, didn't the Spanish federation have the excuse that sports doping was not illegal at the time he left his blood bags with the good doctor? It's quite illegal in Spain now.

Sure, but you could expect the Spanish to argue that if the blood bags weren't in Spain, then it isn't illegal in Spain. Then they will boycott French wine or something.

Dave.

Perhaps the guilty parties will end up paying fines to call off the legal dogs, with the French issuing statements that the fines are no way an admission of guilt. ala Kloden & the German authorities, in other words.

Ok, here is another version - in English - from NY Times:

French officials said in October that they had found syringes and other suspicious medical equipment used in infusions among medical waste at the 2009 Tour. Le Monde said that those officials now believe that the items belonged to Astana, which had three riders in the top 10 — including the winner, Alberto Contador, and the third-place finisher, Lance Armstrong, a seven-time Tour winner.

Armstrong, who has been dogged by doping allegations for most of his career, now rides for the United States-based RadioShack team.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Dave.

So far the French have been tougher than most other countries (Spain, Germany, etc.), so I would be somewhat surprised if that happened. Especially given the potential fish to fry here.

Among the French, only ASO has shown much willingness to turn a blind eye towards a certain American rider, and that was really only last year, when they (finally) realized how much money his presence meant to them. And I don't think ASO will have any place in this investigation, though they might have some power down the road if this turns into a muddy legal situation where no one can be sanctioned but ASO still has control over TdF invitations.

The Teflon Don's (Hog and Sir Lancelot) will find a way to get off even if charges are brought against them by the French Cycling Federation, which is bought and paid for by the ASO in case anyone is wondering. Amaury Sports/Christian Prudhomme realize that Lance is their "golden goose" and aren't about to let another year to two years go to waste without cashing in, so better to milk the cow now before it dries up completely, i.e. Juan Pelota retires for good!

Sadly, there will be nothing that comes from this and this latest potential scandal will become just another footnote in a long, long line of circumstantial evidence that will forever be associated with the LA and JB legacy. In the meantime the ASO will be free to promote and build up the Armstrong vs. Contador battle as though it were the equivalent of Ali vs. Frazier in the cycling world.

I'm sure when Vs. begins promoting this race they'll make AC out to be the villain to Lance's "hero" persona due to AC's alleged insubordination last year. Of course those that follow the sport will know better, but the sheeple that tune in only for that race will sucked into the drama. To spoil the party I'd love nothing more than for Schleck the younger or Sastre to win.

I doubt this story will get much more in the way of legs and will quickly trickle off the radar. "Nothing to see here folks. Continue to move along."

This story seems to have fallen off the map. That's odd.

Isn't it now?

That says a lot about the sport as a whole. It's possible the velo media types are all on holiday but it sure does seem like one of the biggest stories around.

It's all circumstantial and there is supposedly no trace of any drug but it lines up exactly with what the blood results have already shown.

Presumably there won't be any more to add to the story until the French get access to DNA profiles from the Astana riders. I'm surprised that Le Monde hasn't dragged a comment out of the UCI by now or come up with something about how the cooperation between the UCI and the French is proceeding (or not). The UCI certainly has reason to try to bury this, but the French press in the past have been pretty good at following up on these things. Like TheMight, I'm also assuming the holidays have delayed the story.




I don't think it's that there's "no trace"--I think the testing just hasn't been completed yet. The cyclingnews story says that the French labs were planning to test for HGH (and presumably other things as well).

"...The newspaper also claims that DNA testing on the seized Astana team's material revealed the presence of seven unique DNA fingerprints, but linking the evidence to individual riders would rely upon the UCI sharing its blood profile data with the French authorities..."

Surely this is poised to break wide open post-holidaze?

Wouldn't the AFLD already have its own samples from testing that it could use for DNA matching? (Okay, I've forgotten who tested who and when this year...)

It's a bad look for the UCI if they don't share: a WADA-banned practice gets linked to seven individuals; surely they can't let this one slide. (Perhaps it's just my festive season lack of perspective...)

Bruyneel clears it all up today!



Translation: our stuff is squeaky clean way before it ends up in the trash! Via cyclingnews.



It would certainly look bad, but this problem has dogged other sports (like baseball), because there are often privacy clauses in athletes' contracts that prevent any testing data from being shared. As I said before, I have no idea what's in the standard rider contract with respect to the passport, but it's certainly possible that the UCI won't be able to share data with the French authorities. Anyone else know the legal details?

Privacy clauses have no values against laws, and first have to respect laws.

In France DNA of already criminal are stored. So when samples (hair) were taken, no DNA records were done, can only be done with a justice agreement.

Because of the law, UCI should have to be very sharp if they don't want to be found accomplice of doping.

We have discussed the privacy angle before.

The difference between cycling and baseball is that by taking out a UCI license you agree that you will submit to testing ("The holder is subject to the Regulations... and accepts any drug and blood tests...").

Baseball, on the other hand, is... baseball.

Dave.

Since they already have LA's hair and blood, I think they would use it if they think they could get a match.

I highly doubt LA would be so carless. IMO, any transfusions he would have been involved with, would be well hidden and his own personel would be in complete control on everything, destroying all evidence along the way.

This is a criminal investigation and will likely move slowly (but surely?). I wouldn't expect daily, weekly or even monthly updates.

According the old but recen us, every riders under doping investigation should not take part to any race... shouldn't he?

Is there a way to verify that it is an actual investigation? As I understand it, the whole story is leaked in LeMonde, there is some possibility that's all just a "story." Any possibility that someone with authority could say "yes there is an investigation of these people" or "no there isn't one?"

You can't expect regular updates but it does seem to create some sporting issues, should they be competing? (continuing to profit?) Will UCI provide information? Will UCI honor a ban if guilt is determined? Do any of the major race promoters have feelings about it? It's not like credibility has mattered in the past to many of the stakeholders, but we are talking about fairly serious allegations against a core group of guys that have won just about everything for a decade.

According to the Le Monde article, there is an investigation underway. The preliminary findings are that Astana committed a penal infraction during the 2009 TDF for possession of transfusion kits. This information is said to have come directly from the prosecuter's office and isn't "leaked", so it is pretty clear that YES, there is an investigation going on.

The remaining information appears to be less official - coming from "sources close to the investigation". For example, further to these findings, additional testing will be done to attempt to determine the products found, syringes and needles of various sizes were found in Astana rooms and garbage and that 7 genetic profiles have been discovered on the seized items.

I wouldn't think the courts have any say on the sporting issues, so they won't be deciding who can and can't race. On the other hand, the sporting bodies will have a difficult time making any such decisions as they likely don't have access to much of the information and, despite many a disinformation campaign would have us believe, the principle of innocent until proven guilty is a fundamental right in France.

Should be interesting going forward.

Interesting stuff. Thanks.

But if this is France, aren't we dealing with the Code Civil? ("under the Code Civil an accused person is guilty until proven innocent (as opposed to common law, which holds that a person is innocent until proven guilty)").

Speaking of which (guilty until proven innocent?), and I hate to cheapen this excellent thread, but Lancey-poo may have more on his mind right now as he apparently just made this week's National Enquirer list.

Little font to minimize the distraction.

Dave.

Thank you.



Well clearly the courts couldn't ban people or change things but the UCI could honor what the court finds. Of course since it's a penal issue, UCI presumably hasn't been informed. I guess the pro-tour honor code doesn't apply. It should be interesting, I wonder what's being said behind the closed doors, Astana is playing the game just like everyone has before, only they aren't dealing with sports people this time.