Wow ................... poor Tyler. He is disheartened by this unfortunate 8 year penalty for just trying to self medicate for his depression. And Michael Ball says that it is unfortunate that this young man who has so much left to give to cycling both on and off the bike is given this penalty.

What a crock of BS.

Do these dope heads really think that people still listen to their whining pathetic excuses? (Hmmm ... I guess some people are still suckered in)

Seriously........... a professional cyclist who has fallen foul of the drug testing previously decides to self administer a health product for his depression. The excuses just keep getting better all the time. Now poor Tyler is actually a victim. He was just trying to heal himself... to get to a better place.

Oh .... but good news he is now going to spend time helping those other sufferers of depression.

Well I really feel so much better about the doper now.

Will the next rider claim he has alzheimer's disease and forgot what pill he was meant to take. Being a righteous sole he will take his harsh and unjust penalty like a man, promise to come back better than before and in the meantime will fight to find a cure for this terrible disease.

Doping really does make some sad pathetic creatures.

Thanks,

Buddy

Helped you with that, I did.

(deleted double post}

I see Hamilton as a victim. It's a tragic situation. What he did was take omerta to a new extreme....an omerta for the 21st century.

But on the other hand, if everybody suffered the same fate as Hamilton then omerta would probably crumble pretty quick.

The punishment is overkill. The guy retired. Somebody decided to rub it in real good as if it demonstrates an intolerance for ignorance in the use of over the counter meds.

That's the problem with mandatory sentencing guidelines.
The same thing happened in the US criminal system because of our now soon to be defunct war on drugs. Our prisons are full of drug users who couldnt stop who got thtree strikes or were underpriveleged and underclass and couldnt afford Martha Stewart lawyers.
Now we have a similar thing with cycling.

To Steve's point above, well taken, the problem extends well beyond cheating in the sport as Pantani, Boonen and TYler all demonstrate. Who is protecting the health of the riders?

Maybe USADA should get together with Obama's drug czar and ask about real research and real methods in drug abuse prevention and remediation. These are athletes after all and all they get is a suspension. THere should be mandatory counseling and treatment with options for reduced sentences for compliance--not for singing songs and naming names a la Kohl.

Real prevention and rehabilitation is a completely different mindset. It begins with accepting that drug abuse is widespread, and not preventable by just say no, or fear of long bans and sentences.

How about a Cycling czar?

I might agree to some extent that the punishment was harsh if Tyler's explanation for why he took the banned substance was credible. It isn't.

But he is a victim of the doping/omerta system--that is clear enough.

Still, if cycling actually wants to clean up its act it should enforce its own rules.

If fans were beginning not to believe stupid tales of their heroe less athletes would not be in that situation.

Hmm... isn't this a second offence? I actually thought the rule was two strikes and out nowadays.

I have every sympathy for Hamilton's personal conditions and hope that he recovers. I liked him both when he rode for CSC and Phonak, and it has been sad to follow the downward spiral. But quite frankly, I won't be sorry to never see him ride competitively again.

Yeah Steve .... thanks for that.

Are we to call you Yoda now?

Do people really believe the depression story? I think it comes across as a pathetic excuse of a known doper to try to justify why there was a steroid in his system and at the same time to garner some sympathy.

If Tyler really had depression why didn't those close to him make sure he had help?

Why didn't Michael Ball make sure his teams medical personnel gave him the appropriate medication so that he wouldn't get busted ......again?

Maybe I have just become too cynical of the dopers after all the BS stories to believe anything that comes out of their mouth.

I think it unfortunate that Pantani is dead. The same for Jiminez. And I am sure there are plenty of others who have died as a result of their doping practices. I hope Tom Boonen is not going the same way.

If Hamilton really does have depression then the last place he should be is cycling. But that's the question ..... did he really have depression or was he just on a course of steroids and the depression line worked well with the polling that his PR firm undertook just in case he was ever busted?

In any case he probably now does have depression after being booted for 8 years. If so I do hope he can recover as no rider should be where Pantani is now. It is only a sport for gods sake.


Thanks,

Buddy

the only difference between hamilton and most of the other riders is he keeps getting caught.

I have no doubt that Tyler had depression.
Have you ever been through a Divorce?
Do you have a family history of depression?
Did you cheat to win an Olympic Medal and have extreme guilt?

Depression is a real disease, and often the ones close to the afflicted are at a loss as how to help.
Yep Tyler dopped. But I think we can sorta stop kicking that dead horse.

If he retired then why does it matter what the punishment is? Seems it's only unfair or overkill if he was planning on "un-retiring" in a year or if he was planning on being a DS or team owner. He still can probably "coach" riders one on one for pay.

If they were really rubbing it in, it would have been a lifetime ban. Likewise, if in fact he is depressed, maybe spending some time away from a career of lies might be some good therapy. The last couple years make me think he's not well situated financially for the long haul and we'll see him again in the cycling world.

Amen to all of the above. Especially depression is a real disease. People really don't know what to do or say, mental health issues leave most people at a loss for words and they operate on the assumption that "someone" close to the afflicted will help them...often times this is not the case. It is very easy to slip through the cracks with depression.

Tyler has a long, hard road ahead of him. I wish him well and good luck.

a big +1

I don't know whether Tyler is truly depressed or if he's making it up.

I do know that I don't want to read about another cyclist OD'ing in a hotel, so I give him the benefit of the doubt.

CN: A 46 year old Tyler Hamilton will be refused entry to the 2017 TDF according to officials. Hamilton had no comment from his wheelchair.

WADA seeking a lifetime ban:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...o3UTsAD99FMI4G0

The vampires at WADA always ensure that they get their pint of blood. They always keep the goal in focus ... and nothing else.

Interesting reading on this thread. I won't say where I stand, but I see that there are many people out there with extreme, severe, views. Sympathy isn't as freely available as I previously thought ... Ouch !

I believe Tyler has been turned over plenty already. Those who wish to sustain that treatment need their heads read, in my opinion.

But whose blood is it really?

The Hamilton situation is not easy to understand.

On the one hand, he has proven to be an unrepenting doper and lier. To my knowledge he has never admitted doping (except for the depression medicine, which doesn't really count as an admission). On the other hand, he can be seen as a victim of a doping system and himself has made reference to the dark forces that enforce omerta.

In order that riders don't follow Pantini's path is it better to reinforce anti-doping efforts to try to eliminate the life of doping that leads to the deadly spiral, or is it better to accept the pathetic lies and excuses of dopers as not to push them into guilt ridden denial.

I assume that WADA is pushing for a lifetime ban in order to show consistency in the sanctions, but it is a legitimate question to ask why a lifetime ban when 8 years is basically the equivalent. Does it really matter to Hamilton? In any case, for his mental health, it would likely be better for him to get away from the cycling world that has caused him so much grief.

I wish him well, but at the same time think it would be better for him to tell the truth and leave behind his world of lies and deception.

edited to try and avoid looking like an insensitive person that wishes bad things for others

+1 i think the 8 yrs got the message through pretty well. for me it smacks of vindictiveness

It's been mentioned before, but if this was not an American rider, I doubt anyone here would care.

I strongly doubt anyone in WADA cares about who Tyler Hamilton is or was. IMO, it is pretty obvious that WADA is going after the Tyler case to solidify the precedent: first offence = two year ban, second offence = lifetime.

Setting the precedent on these kind of cases and pursuing them when they turn up, helps to standardize (however small the extent may be) the treatment of athletes in different countries and avoid cases like the attempted Vinokorouv dodge a few years back.

Are you suggesting he should commit suicide?

You're one to preach about deception. You continue to propagate lies such as:

How is that a lie? There's a maybe in front of it.

Unfortunate wording I must admit. Of course I was suggesting that he tell the truth - not at all the same thing I hope you would agree.


I am guilty of stealing ideas from TOTO

http://velocitynation.com/content/toto/2009/toto-turns-141

1. Obviously not. But, it has to be better for your health to move away from the web spinning. It certainly must be better for your financial health.

2. Yours would be the deception as there was no lie involved in that statement by ff. The "maybe" qualified it, and the 'bank opening' part was a clever insinuation about this incident that has already received official comment for its unusual nature. That insinuation is reinforced by knowledge of past events involving cash transactions between certain rider and the UCI.

Though we are unsure of the connection, said rider is known to wear a black hat to separate himself from those wearing white hats.

Now, if you are suggesting that a certain rider did not make a large contribution to the UCI to help the 'anti-doping' cause, the specific rationale, timing, mechanism for which he claimed he could not remember under oath, then you would be perpetuating an even bigger lie.

To better aid your own memory of this, I would be more than willing to re-post his testimony as a reminder of his vagueness on something that was clearly a large and unusual transaction?

So as none of us makes an incorrect statement about the use of proceeds, could you do all of us the favor of providing the UCI's official, audited accounting for this 'donation' and how these funds were directed?

Dave.

2nd positive equals lifetime ban. Tyler knew the rules when he signed the code.

Too bad, cycling needs more doping liars like Tyler

and a smiley after it

Personally, I completely agree that he lives in a world of lies and deception and that these forces are slowly destroying him. Where our views differ are who exactly is the source of these lies and who is the victim. I strongly suspect that Tyler Hamilton is actually innocent of the doping allegations made against him (perhaps with the exception of the admitted anti-depressants). That's my firm belief. I looked at the evidence and it was all over the place. Immature technology riding on the cutting edge of incompetence. He's been singled out now in the anti-doping world and we all know what that means ...


Man, that must have been a big edit and if this was the result, I'm glad I never suffered the unedited version ...

Ali, you are a defense attorney's dream-come-true.

Gee, I thought the rule was to attack the message, not the messenger ? Either way, not sure whether this is good or bad ... I'm guessing not good ?

Hmmm. Yes, that newfangled thing they call a fax machine ... immature technology, indeed! Why, I was digging through a stack of old papers the other day and ran across a fax, and lo and behold the print was so faint I could barely read it!

Come to think of it, it's a shame Tyler's doping plan and installment payment plan wasn't faxed by Fuentes using a similar "disappearing ink"!

Yep, it's clear the guy is as clean and innocent as freshly fallen snow. Speaking of snowfall temperatures ... good thing for the freezing of his Olympic B-sample, no? Saved us from yet another unfair indictment on "immature technology".

Yep, the evidence is ... all over the place all right. Olympic venue in Greece, WADA lab in Spain, WADA lab in France, team doctor testimony in the U.S., WADA lab in Italy, fax machine in Girona, WADA lab in California.

Remind me of this one (or point me toward details), if you please. My small brain cannot contain everything.

depends on who side you are on.

Prentice Steffen, USPS team doctor. Said Marty Jemison and Tyler pressured him to get them on a team doping program. He refused and was fired when the Hog came in charge the next year.

Are you not feeding that world of lies?

Hey, Ali - can you give us your defense of those non-American-speaking-hard-names-to-pronounce riders that get busted (two more this week, actually) - I'm sure they're innocent too, right? No one dopes, right? Oh, wait, no American rider with PR firms to spin their stories and cynical fund raising foundations and have naive geeks that form "Wiki" defences dope, right? Let me know your defense of Landaluze, OK? He's been framed, right? Give him a call (how's your Spanish [or Basque]?) I'm sure he'd love your expertise, especially since he's confessed - but, of course, he's been conned into the confession, right? How could you any rider confess to doping when they're all innocent?

Just about the best post ever in response to irrational idolatry.

Thanks

Now you know only the USA riders are inocent. We established that a while back.

As for Tyler, I think that if he would not have requested donations for his standoff with the doping authorities then he would fair much better at this point. How about his twin excusse that was a dooozie!

I wonder if WADA is seeking the same lifetime ban on his vanishing twin?

VP, one of the few posts I've probably agreed with you.

Thanks, Wolves Lower. People who don't know anything about depression are incredibly ignorant sometimes. It is an insiduous disesase...the energy devoted to try to live life and make it appear that everything else is normal and that the person is functioning and normal is incredible. Depression is always tied up with secrecy because the stigma is GREAT. Did you know that people can perform in their jobs and do it well and no one else suspects what they are suffering through? Did you know that your great American President Abraham Lincoln suffered from depression? Mike Wallace, an incredible journalist spoke about working through 10 years of clinical depression that most other people would have been hospitalized for...no person talks about depression because everyone else is so afraid of hearing about mental health that is why most people shy away about helping...they figure a best friend, spouse or other family member is involved in helping the ill person. I get mad when I hear people talk about this condition because it affects everyone...the family struggling by the sidelines with an ill relative is greatly affected by this condition. I don't know US statistics, but in Canada, one if five Canadians will have depression this year....and sadly the most underdiagnosed group is youth from 15 - 24 years of age. I volunteer with a mental health organisation to stop the stigma and silence that the sufferers undergo. Believe me, a person has more sympathy and help if it is a tangible medical condition...if one in five people had diabetes and weren't helped you can bet the family members would be agitating the heath system for treatment...but sadly to say this isn't being done for mental health.

I've said it before for Tyler...I wish him much strength and luck battling his condition. There are social, physical and financial repercussions to this disease. Why flog him and throw stones at him here?
He knows the mistakes he has made and believe me he's living with them.

Sweetpea, this is only a hypothetical question, but are you sure he is truly depressed? Or, if he is depressed are there are other things going on here that, on balance, outweigh this?

Is there any past history of hiding behind trumped up medical condition? Any possiblity that he is prone to stretch the truth?

Is he depressed because he recognizes the situaton that he has created and is remorseful about that, or is it that he feels this situation has been depressingly and 'unfairly' placed upon him?

The problem with Tyler is that he has made himself unbelievable. He has a pattern of very large lies, and he alone is responsible for that. Unfortunately, at this point, isn't it hard to simply suggest that all is forgiven and washed away because he has claimed a sympathetic medical condition?

I, and likely others, would be all too happy to believe him if he were to take that all important credible first step towards honesty.

Dave.

Sympathy for Tyler? Well, I have sympathy for him, like Floyd, insofar as he's a victim of the system. I think he has probably been beat on and castigated more than his due (I mean, relative to everyone else in the peloton) but no doubt Tyler did alot to earn it. For example, why is it that Tyler's doping plan and no one else's was released to the media? Is it because it was easy to believe that Tyler was working with Fuentes, and it was already established he was a doper?

Make no mistake people, Hamilton has done and is doing exactly what Bjarn Riis, Lance Armstrong, Johan Bruyneel and everyone else he is protecting via his lies wants him to do. He is a loyal omerta soldier, and the whole depression story, while no doubt containing some elements of truth, was his last service to omerta. By refusing to come clean or admit guilt, he is doing what he thinks he has to do to protect cycling and to protect the profession. Stopping future Hamiltons is not a question of instituting ethics programs, it is a question of removing the doping guard that thrives on and brings up Hamiltons.

People keep making the mistake as seeing doping as a transgression made by individuals. But this fundamentally misunderstands how cycling works. You can't dope without financial support, you can't dope without doctors, you can't dope without networks. Cyclists don't just keep silent about doping to protect themselves, they keep silent to protect the people around them.

Dave, are you completely sure that he isn't depressed? I obviously don't have proof that he is. But I will stand up for someone who says they are suffering from depression. The point isn't whether Tyler or another rider doped and isn't coming clean. The point is no one in their right mind is generally going to throw out "I'm depressed" as an excuse for anything...it's not something you throw out in the public sphere with impunity. Believe me....most people cringe when having to deal with the whole idea of depression...some people think a person is wacko, crazy...again misconceptions abound.
I am sadly resigned to the fact that so many people would throw Tyler under the bus on this board.
A hypothetical question Dave, subsitute a loved one, your wife, girlfriend, mother, father, brother or sister for Tyler and they had problems and had lied to you...what would you do?
Is there no room for compassion and understanding here?

To assign personal responsibility is not mutually exclusive with indicting the environment and institutions within which the individual CHOOSES to live.

Take the political examples of Colin Powell and Scott McClellan. Both wanted to absolve themselves of any personal responsibility for the consequences of the Bush administration's actions. They were just helpless cogs in a bigger machine, they said. (Quickly adding that they thought they could do the morally selfless duty of the greater good by trying to change things from the inside). They disagreed personally with the choices the machine made, but felt powerless to change them, they claimed. They couldn't possibly have spoken out against those choices, they claimed.

Except that they could have. They could have resigned, rather than chosen to be a cog in the machine that was doing things they later wish to absolve themselves of, rather than carrying out actions that destroyed others.

Being a pro cyclist isn't the only career in the world. Tyler Hamilton was a well-educated guy, from an upper class family with loads of alternatives when he went to Europe. When it became clear to him that the only way to be competitive and win races at the pro level was to dope, he had a fundamental choice between three alternatives: either forego doping and still collect a paycheck living the dream as a pro cyclist, but accept that he'd never win races or be much more than a domestique, or leave cycling to the dopers go back to the U.S. finish his education and pursue a career that would still build a home for him and his wife, etc., or to join in with the institution of doping, as a cog in their machine.

There are plenty of guys who choose option #1 or option #2, and while they'd all lament that such a choice has to exist, that it is really no different then what most everyone faces at some point in life -- when the chance at the next income bracket, or the next promotion, comes only with the sacrifice of the moral high ground.

I think there are far too many excuses made for these guys on the basis that they weren't really "bad," they were just good people "stuck" in a bad and corrupt institution. They never ever want to own their own choices and their own actions. It's a funny thing, I don't recall hearing anyone talking about Jeff Skilling as some sort of victim, a decent guy who could only achieve the fame, riches and success he sought by agreeing to work for the corrupt institution that was Enron. Ditto their accountants who helped cook the books, etc.

In Tyler's case, there's the added bit about the whole money scam. It's one thing to make your own choice to lie and cheat to achieve your own personal goals within the sport of cycling. But that can be done without going out and scamming innocent fans out of their cash. THAT is completely over the top. An unambiguously and utterly spineless, gutless, scumbag move.

Interesting post Floridacyclist. It's true that sometimes it can be easy enough to justify an action based mostly on self-interest (for example Colin Powell not resigning when he should have) as an action justified by higher moral aims (ie that he could do more good from the inside etc.).

But it wouldn't be at all justified to pin the failures of Bush foreign policy on people like Powell not speaking out. If we really wanted to understand Bush foreign policy, we would have to delve deeper into the larger systemic issues--ie the hegemony of monied interests, the undue influence of energy and defense interests in GOP decision-making, neo-con ideology, the failure of the media to report the facts, etc etc. Powell is just one man who may or may not have been trying to do the right thing--the origins of his mistakes are larger than his failure to stay morally upright.

It's similar with Hamilton. I'm not claiming he made good decisions, morally or otherwise. Obviously he didn't. I'm saying he is very clearly a victim--it wasn't Hamilton alone that made Hamilton who he became. It is the culture created and fostered by the DSes and mentors--many of whom (say Bruyneel and Riis) worked closely with Hamilton. To put it all on Hamilton's moral failings, as the media and many posters here want to do, is to fundamentally misunderstand what is going on.

What evidence is there, anyway, that Hamilton was exceptional? We'd all like to think that he received so much attention from anti-doping authorities because he was a particularly egregious cheater and therefore his fate was just. But given the system as it is....we may never know. And there's basically no way of knowing. All we know is his enablers are still working in cycling, and the primary reason Hamilton continues to lie is to protect them. That's what makes this depression story so smart--instead of admitting and therefore raising questions about the hows and whys, Hamilton distracts with a narrative all of us can relate to.

To argue about whether or not the depression is legitimate is to fall for the bait---who gives a #### about Hamilton's personal life.... The productive direction to look is at who and what made Hamilton what he became.

People lie. People who have problems lie.

Almost certainly some or even all of the people you list have lied to me.

I do have a relative who is a recovering (thankfully) alcoholic. They definitely had problems, and they definitely lied to me and about me. I am lucky, though, that they are recovering. And, I am lucky that they appear to be truly remorseful.

Depression is challenging. But it is not an excuse for lying.

The extent of convolution with Tyler is pretty impressive. As is the lack of remorse.

Depression is not an excuse for lying about whether you have a college degree. Not an excuse for lying about your vanishing twin. Not an excuse for taking people's money. Not an excuse for a lack of remorse.

Dave.

Pretty sad all around.
Life can be pretty damn depressing, we don't always win. What we strive for and work hard for often crumbles and we come up short. Ask George after today's stage.
No matter what its hard to buy life's vagaries as an excuse or justification for bad acts.
That said, I don't see that the 8 year ban is appropriate in this instance.
More importantly, it smacks of not only vengeance... but also "setting an example", hanging a head on a pike... My question is whether or not doing it as a way of warning off others is effective at all,
It seems to me that this idea doing things this way is less than productive...
I hope Tyler the best and he ought to just get on with life and find himself some happiness.
Cheers,
Vaughn