http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080115/spor...doping_politics

This says it all about sport organizations inability to fix their problems. Incapable of reading the writing on the wall, and doing something about it without threat of legal action.

More than 90 players were linked to doping in last month's report on a 20-month investigation by former US Senator George Mitchell, who also appeared before the House of Representatives Oversight Committee hearing.

this reeks of mccarthyism. except they only have that moron, waxman, to trot out in front of the cameras.

"i hold here in my hand a list of 90 communists before this House UnAmerican Activities Committee!"

where's ol' tailgunner joe when we really need him? he'ld get those eeevil doperz with their socialist stupidfast sliders and sinkers! only joe can save us from this red menace! better dead than red...er...better off the back than a 51 hct!

shimanobill says you are a realIST unless it concerns L.A.

Personally I think shimanobill is full of ####.

The sight of congressmen & women pontificating about about the evils of a few millionaires taking PEDs, while neglecting, <moderated to remove several issues that many might consider more important than athletes doping>. Don't these people have a country to run? Couldn't they find an effective arm of the government to take care of entertainment-related crisis while they work on serious legislation? Do we really need to hear what Congressman Bob thinks about Roger Clemens getting his ass injected with steroids? What is the actual cost of having these athlete-congress discussions, in dollars? How many millions of tax-payer dollars is this pointless exercise in congressional grandstanding going to cost us?

I disagree. Baseball has shown no inclination whatsoever to clean up its act. I think it's quite appropriate for Congress to get involved. Just because the scale of this problem is dwarfed by the war, environment, health care, et al. doesn't mean that Congress should not weigh in on it. I agree that Congress could go overboard, spending far more time on this than it warrants, but that hasn't happened yet.

Personally, I'm for legalization of PEDs, at least to some extent. But I'm sensitive to the argument that the lives of millions of kids are affected by the drugs in sports culture, so I think this problem has ramifications well beyond the elite athletes named in the report. There is also a possible link between PES and recreational drugs, and whether you buy that or not, PES, like the other kinds, is a big business that involves illegal manufacture and importation and a whole host of other issues that are very definitely in Congress's domain.

I have been a very strong supporter of the idea that cyclists should have a union--a real union, with teeth--but baseball stands as an example of how unions can perpetuate problems rather than help solve them. Though I think the MLB union is an important organization and should continue to exist, it clearly needs strong opposition at this point.

Lives of millions of kids are affected. How so? Seems pretty far-fetched to me.

wrong, dead wrong.
Read the studies.
Millions of kids, teenagers, 20 and 30 year olds are using the stuff, all inspired my Barry Bonds, Mark McGuire and their home run race.

They see the stars.
THey know they use.
THey see it works.
Then they get some and see it works too.


Read the news:
Stallone, Mary T. Blige, Guv of Caleefornia, etc etc etc

what is far fetched exactly?

What studies? Refer me to the studies that prove millions of kids are affected by PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES using peds. Please refer me to the studies.

FAIR WARNING TO ALL

There has been a serious increase in the ad hominem attacks in these forums lately. I (and we, the rest of the Moderation Staff) realize that this is an emotionally charged subject; however, these attacks are both inflammatory as well as being against the forum rules. So be warned - these attack WILL cease immediately, and any reoccurances of them will result in the thread being closed and the person(s) involved being suspended.

Actually, I was thinking that this would be a really good time for Floyd to visit Capitol Hill.

Maybe even a really good time for some FFF contributors to write their Congressperson.

Dave.

P.S. Steve -- I missed all of what was deleted. Takes the fun out of it when all you get to read are the 'modified' posts.

What is the actual cost of having these athlete-congress discussions, in dollars? How many millions of tax-payer dollars is this pointless exercise in congressional grandstanding going to cost us?

i agree. it's insanity. and it's my darn money they're wasting. can't they see i'm already paying for a <sorry, bob, but you're gonna have to be funny without touching on specific political issues>, but the esteemed (or is that 'esteamed?) congresscritters are just hollyweird wannabees.

if the hand-wringing types would simply stop going to see roger whip it over the plate at 98 mph, maybe roger's next contract would be for less money.

unfortunately, they're too busy telling me what i should be paying to go see for entertainment.

oh crap...NPR is right now blathering on with much wailing and knashing of teeth about poor eeevil roger, lamenting the lack of an HGH lood test and questioning selig's lack of future (?) results to take place BEFORE spring training!!! holy cow...do those rubes know the boys of summer have already got their preparations in place? oy.

Would you rather have Congress spending a few minor dollars grandstanding or would you rather have Congress deciding on new programs that will cost serious money?

A single smart bomb for the army will cost more than these hearings.

smart bomb ..... WTF is that and how in the hell does one go about researching the cost on something that sounds a bit out of place. A bomb and smart does not go together... just ask Gump.

if you let the television raise your children, then you deserve to have your children grow up to be ped using losers...i grew up in a house where the television was routinely unplugged and put in the closet for months at a time...this is just like the arguments for nochild leftbehind; it's the school's fault that our kids are stupid even though most of those kids go to a home where their parents do little to encourage and foster success...plenty of good kids have come out of situatiuons far worse than being exposed to "evildoers" like roger clemens...are you having trouble? let me help. lesson number 1. hey little johnny, you don't know the first thing about roger clemens, he could be a sheep sodomizing child rapist for all you know...just because he can throw a ball fast (not even at a moving target by the way), is no good reason to want to be like him...lesson number 2. why doing the right thing is usually not the same as doing the easy thing...more on that tomorrow

i suppose that constitutionally, Congress has a dog in this fight, as the illegal drug market probably has some impact on interstate commerce...but it is a very small dog...not even a chihuahua...and hearings are not warranted...i mean f##k, these guys only work like 3 months per year anyway...now they're wasting a significant portion of that time...it's just washington egos jump-ing on the bandwagon because the t.v. says that if they do, they'll get re-elected...goddam i'd love to hold their heads under water

It must be election year. 'nuff said.

I seem to have missed a lot of excitement.

My point was simply that if you put Clemens or any of the accused baseball players on trial in a state or federal court, you'll have a media circus and all the publicity the issue needs, so we don't need to have a legislative body involved. Sorry Steve, I certainly could have said that without dragging in inflammatory issues.

'how much' did it cost to put marion jones in the slammer and how much is it costing us to keep her there for 6 months. how much to administer her ensuing probation?

me? i'ld rather buy another bomb. better bang for the buck...no pun intended.

i know baseball has been erroneously called "the national passtime" (hence replaced by whining on the internet), but just when did it become the job of a national legislator to regulate how a pitcher puts one over the plate or how a cyclist gets his scrawny lycra-clad arse (jan excepted, of course) up the side of a hill?

c'mon springtime! baseball and cycling will soon be back in season in ohio!

Wow. If deleted posts are any indication of controversy, I think we may have a winner!

I mssed it too. I mean, how interesting is a thread where everything but the obligatory FFF reference from Dave is deleted?

What I was referring to--and this is beyond dispute, just do a quick search--is that the vast majority of users of steroids, for example, are not pro athletes, but young males who simply want to look good. Some of them are Clemens or McGwire wannabees, but most of them simply want to look more muscular.

Goldenear, who probably knows more about this than the rest of us put together, has emphasized this time and again, though he thinks there is nothing wrong with young kids taking these substances.

Like I said far-fetched. Young males are not the same as millions of kids. Maybe the use of PEDS by pro athletes is a good thing for the children. It can be an opportunity for some parenting. You know, a discussion. Don't be so close-minded and a follower.

Simple, silly.

A smart bomb is something conceived of by military intelligence, approved by congressional ethics to reduce the small fortune that is caused by those who bear false witness and help us get far closer to stopping victimless crime.

No jumbo shrimp in my unbiased opinion.

Dave.

MLB and WADA face off:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

Yes, I confess to being a "follower" of statistics. They have a habit of convincing me:


http://www.steroidabuse.com/steroid-use-in-high-schools.html

“According to the Monitoring the Future Survey by The University of Michigan, in 2006, 2.7% of high school seniors reported they had tried steroids at least once in their lifetime."

The table in this article indicates a similar rate of steroid use among lower grades as well,and the rates for past year or more recently strongly suggest multiple use among a great many of these students.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandsta.../schoolboom.htm

As of 2003, there were 17 million high school students and 17 million college students in the U.S. As indicated above, surveys of eighth through 12th grade indicate that 2-3% of these students have taken steroids at least once. This is close to 1 million, and doesn't take into account younger, elementary school steroid users (the eighth grade rate is nearly as high as the rate for HS seniors), or the likelihood that the rate may be higher among college students. It also does not take into account steroid use among youth who are not in school. Not to mention under-reporting. I have no problem with the use of the word "millions" here.

GWR:

"MLB and WADA face off:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...efer=home"

See:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/18/...wth-Hormone.php

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3017042

T

I don't see where it says that this use is a result of pro athletes taking PED's. People will always cheat and try to get ahead.

Some of us are tired of seeing "what about the children" trotted out as a reason for government to control what should be personal decisions, or shield those that make poor decisions by labeling them "victim". We are all responsible for our choices, and one of those is how we raise our kids. If mine turns out bad, it won't be because of athletes taking drugs, and if she turns out good it won't be because it is illegal to advertise cigs or hard liquor on US TV.

17 + 17 million is 34 million x 3% is more than one million.

Wrt underreporting, I can easily see how kids taking steroids would deny it. I have more trouble seeing why kids not taking them would say they did.

"Some of us are tired of seeing "what about the children" trotted out as a reason for government to control what should be personal decisions, or shield those that make poor decisions by labeling them "victim". We are all responsible for our choices, and one of those is how we raise our kids. If mine turns out bad, it won't be because of athletes taking drugs, and if she turns out good it won't be because it is illegal to advertise cigs or hard liquor on US TV. "

It's not the 19th century any more. Kids are profoundly influenced by what occurs in society around them, and no parent can shield them from all these influences.

Who said anything about "shielding"? Some of us raise kids differently than just hiding them from the boogieman.

Chris E,

I agree with your sentiments in this post. I don't need anyone else to accept responsibility for my life or anyone else to blame for the problems.

Cal

Are you suggesting my jokes are getting old? Is this the dark side of black humor?

Personally, I am just amazed at how many three word strings you can put together with words starting with "F".

I had even launched the first F-string (TRUE!!!) just before the FFF was launched. dbrower got all over my case for that one. The reason for his sensitivity being rather transparent a day or two later.

All these F-words that I have used, and not a single F-bomb?

You have to give me credit, when so many months later, after the site has even been taken down, that I have never, ever resorted to lowering myself to use the FFF-word for any description of the Frail Forlone Flop, the Foolish Fleeting Funds and their Foppish Fiendly Fellows. I have never dropped so low as to observe at just how FFF'd up the whole FFF'ing strategy was and is.

Some may interpret it as Floyd Fleeces Friends.

But to me, it just looks like a complete FFF'around and one big FFF'ing mess!

Dave.

Oh the humanity! When will it end? Aren't there any athlete's that kids can look up to anymore?

good stuff, Roadent...thanks!

Are you aware that the view you express has itself been shaped by your membership in a particular society? Needless to say, we aren't born with this view, or any other. Parental influences are important, but they aren't the only ones. The belief in individual responsibility is to a large extent a Western view, and particularly an American one. If you had not been born in America or another Western country, there is a very good chance you would not have had this view, certainly not to the degree that you have it.

So when you argue that social influences are not important, you have created a logical contradiction. Your view that social influences are not or need not play a great role in shaping individual beliefs and behavior is itself a product of social influences.

Very good, it's even better if you have lysdexia and read it as " Aren't there any kids that athletes can look up to anymore?

Regards,

This thread is about whether athletes using PED's have a direct influence on teens using PED's. You can't say that it does.

"Views" seem to be like the proverbial a$$hole, but who is ultimately responsible for our decisions?? Justifying poor decisions due to outside influences is a copout IMO. We all know right from wrong. It's funny that you argue against the American position of accepting personal responsibility. American? To say that one doesn't have a choice to take PED's or drugs or commit crime is ludicrous, because none of those are accepted in any society that I am aware of.

Nancy said No!

Dave.

'Said the Rasta skeleton
Blow Nancy Blow'
'Ballad of the Skeletons'

Personal responsibililty can mean different things to different people. Take a look at this website:

http://prothinspo.com/thinspo.html

It's a place to find "thinspiration", frequented by young girls who are "pro-ana" (pro-anorexic). Personal responsibility to them is to be as thin as possible. They are very disciplined, eating less than 500 calories a day and popping ephedra and caffeine pills.

Teens are very impressionable (so are adults, thus ridiculous marketing campaigns). They can also be very determined to reach skewed goals.

Teens are very impressionable (so are adults...

huh? i'm NOT wearing argyle sideburns or $280 jeans just because some lunatics do. neither will i get a man-perm with a streak job just because the first guy over the finish line has one.

one of my brothers is still teaching high school and is a coach of the football team in a bedrooom community, middle-class white school district. we've talked about steroids many times. he says it's a non-issue. drinking among his athletes is a real issue.

Honestly I thought I would never see anyone argue that personal responsibility is a “American thang”. If you can not take responsibility for your own actions and do not know right from wrong then please move to some hand out / social serviced island.

Give me a break. I did not mean to take peds but I saw how sexy the chicken looked at the TDF this past year and I just could not resist! It is his fault and his teams fault along with his countrymen’s fault that I injected bad ILLEGAL #### INTO MY BODY. DAM THEM all to hell for forcing my decision to dope.



I HOPE you do not wear that ridiculas suit coat, vest and cheese tie either??????

Better question do you have a yellow BALLAH bracelet? I did but it broke back in 200? and I have not had another "purchased" one.

Mental illness is not a good reason to force the nanny-state upon us sane individuals.

Amen!

double-amen!

Hmmm. If by mental illness you mean the sport's leader's willful blindness and conflict of interest in not addressing doping while 30 guys died, I'd have to disagree. We clearly needed protection from them.

Or do you consider mentally ill all the pros that felt compelled to dope while verDRUGgen et al fiddled? They'd appreciate your assessment, I'm sure.

No he means or at least I think he means that some people want to vomit their meals after they eat and then another group of people along with them want to blame someone else for their vomiting meals on a daily basis. We do not need any science to tell us that people do not have any personal responsibility for their own actions.

Sorry if I missed the point, but what's the connection between anorexic girls and doping then?

well sundaymorning brought it up to say things such as personal responsability has different meaning for different groups. I think that was it.

OMJ,

Thanks for your words. Let me clarify. I did not say that social influences play no part in shaping the individual. You might be surprised that I believe that wholeheartedly. If interested in learning what is shaping my thinking, you can look at this sight - http://www.thebowencenter.org/

In fact I believe we simply act and behave as we have been programmed, however, because of our neocortex, we are able to think about who we are and how we respond. I believe what separates us from the animal world is to think, take responsibility for our life, and make choices based upon this thought process. I do not find the need to ask government, other institutional entities, parents, or children to think for me. The way out of the doping situation may or may not include govt intervention, however, it is the trumpeted party line for the masses. Whenever that begins to occur, I become sceptical.

I just happen to agree with Chris E that trotting out the '"save the children" line is like slapping motherhood. It raises people's anxiety and makes it harder to have rational discussion.

Peace,
Cal