i asked this in another thread, but thot that i would give it a place of its own along with some other questions. FEEL FREE to add more questions -- but this thread, i hope, will be about lists and sources -- not about reactions to riders or to posters



1) can we list in ONE place and with sources, all the riders and staff and managers who have either admitted OR been PROVED by testing/arbitration panel/appeal process to have been dopping WHILE on the Postal or the Discovery teams? (note the use of "or" -- this does not require "and" -- but it does limit the operative time to when the person was involved with Postal OR Discovery)



2) can we put together such lists for other teams and time frames?



3) another thread alleges that the peloton does not raise an outcry when riders are accused. can we compile the list of all known substantiated cycling accusations/admissions and identify or track the peloton's reactions to the revalations over time?

Did you know that Bach wrote over 200 cantatas, each one of which would give you weeks of enlightening listening and study. And I bet you don't know any of them.

All this obsession with doping is so unbelievably parochial after a while.

yet you post here.

as far as the Bach info, nobody likes a smarty pants.

i am tone deaf and arhythmic -- if the music doen't have lyrics or if i can't see the printed notes on a page, it is meaningless, does nothing for me, and can even be painful



and my point in asking the questions was to depart from parochial thoughts and to approach some concrete givens

I agree, weezy.

As for Bach, I've sung a few of the cantatas, but I like the organ works better-- especially the fugues while I'm riding.

I thought i would just post a list of ALL Disco/Postal Riders from 1996-2006
(excluding any riders currently riding in 07 - no current rider sanctioned for doping correct?)
From wikipedia.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_Channel_Pro_Cycling_Team
Someone else can start highlighting which riders have been officially found doping.

Andrew Hampsten
Anton Villatoro
Antonio Cruz
Antonio Cruz
Benoît Joachim
Cédric Vasseur
Chann McRae
Christian Vandevelde
Damon Kluck
Daniel Rincon
Dariusz Baranowski
Dave Zabriskie
David Clinger
David George
Dylan Casey
Floyd Landis
Frank Høj
Frankie Andreu
Gennady Mikhaylov
Gianpaolo Mondini
Glenn Magnusson
Hayden Roulston
Ivan Basso
Jamie Burrow
Jean-Cyril Robin
Jonathan Patrick McCarty
Jonathan Vaughters
José Azevedo
Juan Llaneras Rosello
Julian Dean
Jurgen Van Den Broeck
Kenny Labbé
Kevin Livingston
Kirk O'Bee
Lance Armstrong
Leif Hoste
Levi Leipheimer
Manuel Beltran
Marty Jemison
Matt White
Max Van Heeswijk
Michael Barry
Michael Creed
Paolo Savoldelli
Pascal Derame
Patrick Jonker
Peter Meinert-Nielsen
Robbie Ventura
Roberto Heras
Roger Hammond
Ryder Hesjedal
Steffen Kjærgaard
Stive Vermaut
Sven Teutenberg
Tom Boonen
Tyler Hamilton
Viatcheslav Ekimov
Víctor Hugo Peña

if one posts a rider as having been found to have doped or as having to confessed to doping, PLEASE be sure to list the team(s) the rider was riding for at the time(s) of the doping --



and please cite your sources

K.O'B. Tested positive. Testosterone. Source USADA. Team ?.

Dave

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_O'Bee

busted on navigators.

why is Disco being singled out? this seems like a censure as the team is disbanding on a positive note. shouldn't be the case. go pick on your favorite team and add some knowledgable content and quite making this forum a mission for idiots.

Sorry, you got it wrong there.

These are the Doping in Cycling threads. This area is strictly for us dopes.

Perhaps you should go find somewhere more attuned to your intellectual level.

Dave.

to be QUITE clear about this -- Disco/Postal IS my second favorite team. My first favorite team is the non-pro team my kid rides on.

i am NOT picking on Disco/Postal -- how should i formulate my null hypothesis for this data collection?

i know what i want to believe about Disco/Postal -- all i am trying to do is see if others can disprove it

so far, there has been one post in this thread regarding a rider with a connection to Disco/Postal but who racing for navigators (after leaving Disco/Postal) when caught

and DQ posted a list including 18 male riders who were sanctioned (see http://www.dailypelotonforums.com/main/ind...=5720&st=20) -- this list is unfortunately lacking team affiliations, but it does include the navigator rider already mentioned



and TH had left Disco/Postal before he was caught as had RH and FL (challenge still pending)

IB's "known" troubles were before coming to Disco

FA's admissions of use relate to 1999 while on Postal

My sixteen year old son is playing one of Bach's unaccompanied cello suites tomorrow in Rockford IL if you'd like to come listen. He's pretty good.

Peace


But that requires really good earphones, which make it a little dangerous if there is any traffic around, don't you think?

And here is the update for 2006:

2006 Cyclists
Genevieve Jeanson (r-EPO) – 2 year, Alice Pennington*, Cale Redpath*, James Mortenson (Missed Tests) – 2 year, Joe Sowers (THC) – 3 month, Alvaro Tadaguila (r-EPO) – 2 year

* Suspensions overturned by USADA

One thing that fascinates me with this list (sorry, off topic) is the number of women. One hypothesis would be that this is reflective of the lack of sophistication in the doping programs (i.e. almost none) in women's cycling.

Dave.

It's not insignificant that some of the most prolific Discovery riders have been caught doping or tested positive after having ridden for Disco (or, in Basso's case, before). I have my theories as to why Disco never had a positive but they are no more than that. What can be asserted is just because the (flawed and corrupt) UCI anti-doping system didn't bust any Disco riders doesn't answer the question of how Discovery was able to dominate teams like ONCE/Liberty, T-Mobile, and CSC, where either organized doping was in place or the team leaders were doping.

If you can read German, here is a very complete list of doping cases:

http://www.cycling4fans.com/index.php?id=1361

Obviously it is not limited to Discovery Channel, though!

"I have my theories as to why Disco never had a positive"

Could it be that USPS had the exclusive services as a consultant on the payroll of one Dr. M. Ferrari (aka Dr. Evil) of Ferrara, Emilia-Romagna, Italy? Dr Ferrari was "officially " engaged by USPS until October 2004. However, Coyle, the author of "Lance Armstrong's War", observed his presence around the USPS training camp after that date.

i ride with a guy that's stone deaf and he has no problems.

I saw a special about a blind guy who skis, but I wouldn't try it blindfolded.

Well, it's great he can do it, and does it - more power to him. But, wow, that would scare me to death! I like hearing it as that big truck approaches my left shoulder, etc.

Peace

the dude is hard core. he's been racing since the early '80's and logs lots of training miles. I've gone knuckle-to-knuckle with him many times in the pack and he's probably safer than a lot of folks that have good hearing.

it might be he's got a sense that someone is behind him? maybe he just assumes something is always coming up on him?

another friend of mine is a casual rider (we did tour europe together way back in the stone age). he wears only a baseball cap on his head and wouldn't leave his driveway without the i-pod playing jazz in his ears. i wouldn't do the i-pod, myself, but he probably has done 2K-3K miles a season and says he has no issues with mixing tunes and traffic.

sorry to go off topic...

meanwhile, back at the ranch...the wada indians have disco surrounded and they're still trying to figure out 'who' was smoking that peace pipe while competing with usps/discovery. stay tuned! dick pound will get to the bottom of this mess!

OK, in case anybody was wondering...


Bach Cantatas Sorted by BWV Number 1 Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern 2 Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein 3 Ach Gott, wie manches Herzeleid I 4 Christ lag in Todesbanden 5 Wo soll ich fliehen hin 6 Bleib bei uns, denn es will Abend werden 7 Christ unser Herr zum Jordan kam 8 Liebster Gott, wenn werd ich sterben? 9 Es ist das Heil uns kommen her 10 Meine Seel erhebt den Herren 11 Lobet Gott in seinen Reichen 12 Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen 13 Meine Seufzer, meine Tränen 14 Wär Gott nicht mit uns diese Zeit 15 Denn du wirst meine Seele nicht in der Hölle lassen [by Johann Ludwig Bach] 16 Herr Gott, dich loben wir 17 Wer Dank opfert, der preiset mich 18 Gleichwie der Regen und Schnee vom Himmel fällt 19 Es erhub sich ein Streit 20 O Ewigkeit, du Donnerwort I 21 Ich hatte viel Bekümmernis 22 Jesus nahm zu sich die Zwölfe 23 Du wahrer Gott und Davids Sohn 24 Ein ungefärbt Gemüte 25 Es ist nichts Gesundes an meinem Leibe 26 Ach wie flüchtig, ach wie nichtig 27 Wer weiß, wie nahe mir mein Ende? 28 Gottlob! nun geht das Jahr zu Ende 29 Wir danken dir, Gott, wir danken dir 30 Freue dich, erlöste Schar 30a Angenehmes Wiederau, freue dich in deinen Auen! 31 Der Himmel lacht! die Erde jubilieret 32 Liebster Jesu, mein Verlangen 33 Allein zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ 34 O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe 34a O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe [incomplete] 35 Geist und Seele wird verwirret 36 Schwingt freudig euch empor 36a Steigt freudig in die Luft [music lost] 36b Die Freude reget sich 36c Schwingt freudig euch empor 37 Wer da gläubet und getauft wird 38 Aus tiefer Not schrei ich zu dir 39 Brich dem Hungrigen dein Brot 40 Darzu ist erschienen der Sohn Gottes 41 Jesu, nun sei gepreiset 42 Am Abend aber desselbigen Sabbats 43 Gott fähret auf mit Jauchzen 44 Sie werden euch in den Bann tun I 45 Es ist dir gesagt, Mensch, was gut ist 46 Schauet doch und sehet, ob irgendein Schmerz sei 47 Wer sich selbst erhöhet, der soll erniedriget werden 48 Ich elender Mensch, wer wird mich erlösen 49 Ich geh und suche mit Verlangen 50 Nun ist das Heil und die Kraft 51 Jauchzet Gott in allen Landen! 52 Falsche Welt, dir trau ich nicht! 53 Schlage doch gewünschte Stunde [probably not authentic] 54 Widerstehe doch der Sünde 55 Ich armer Mensch, ich Sündenknecht 56 Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen 57 Selig ist der Mann 58 Ach Gott, wie manches Herzeleid II 59 Wer mich liebet, der wird mein Wort halten I 60 O Ewigkeit, du Donnerwort II 61 Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland I 62 Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland II 63 Christen, ätzet diesen Tag 64 Sehet, welch eine Liebe hat uns der Vater erzeiget 65 Sie werden aus Saba alle kommen 66 Erfreut euch, ihr Herzen 66a Der Himmel dacht' auf Anhalts Ruhm und Glück [music lost] 67 Halt im Gedächtnis Jesum Christ 68 Also hat Gott die Welt geliebt 69 Lobe den Herrn, meine Seele 69a Lobe den Herrn, meine Seele 70 Wachet! betet! betet! wachet! 70a Wachet! betet! betet! wachet! [music lost] 71 Gott ist mein König 72 Alles nur nach Gottes Willen 73 Herr, wie du willt, so schick's mit mir 74 Wer mich liebet, der wird mein Wort halten II 75 Die Elenden sollen essen 76 Die Himmel erzählen die Ehre Gottes 77 Du sollt Gott, deinen Herren, lieben 78 Jesu, der du meine Seele 79 Gott der Herr ist Sonn und Schild 80 Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott 80a Alles, was von Gott geboren [music lost] 80b Eine feste Burg ist unser Gott [fragments of text and music] 81 Jesus schläft, was soll ich hoffen? 82 Ich habe genug 83 Erfreute Zeit im neuen Bunde 84 Ich bin vergnügt mit meinem Glücke 85 Ich bin ein guter Hirt 86 Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch 87 Bisher habt ihr nichts gebeten in meinem Namen 88 Siehe, ich will viel Fischer aussenden 89 Was soll ich aus dir machen, Ephraim 90 Es reißet euch ein schrecklich Ende 91 Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ 92 Ich hab in Gottes Herz und Sinn 93 Wer nur den lieben Gott lässt walten 94 Was frag ich nach der Welt 95 Christus, der ist mein Leben 96 Herr Christ, der einge Gottessohn 97 In allem meinen Taten 98 Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan I 99 Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan II 100 Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan III 101 Nimm von uns Herr, du treuer Gott 102 Herr, deine Augen sehen nach dem Glauben! 103 Ihr werdet weinen und heulen 104 Du Hirte Israel, höre 105 Herr, gehe nicht ins Gericht mit deinem Knecht 106 Gottes Zeit ist die allerbeste Zeit 107 Was willst du dich betrüben 108 Es ist euch gut, dass ich hingehe 109 Ich glaube, lieber Herr, hilf meinem Unglauben! 110 Unser Mund sei voll Lachens 111 Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit 112 Der Herr ist mein getreuer Hirt 113 Herr Jesu Christ, du höchstes Gut 114 Ach, lieben Christen, seid getrost 115 Mache dich, mein Geist, bereit 116 Du Friedefürst, Herr Jesu Christ 117 Sei Lob und Ehr dem höchsten Gut 119 Preise, Jerusalem, den Herrn 120 Gott, man lobet dich in der Stille 120a Herr Gott, Beherrscher aller Dinge 120b Gott, man lobet Dich in der Stille zu Zion [music lost] 121 Christum wir sollen loben schon 122 Das neugeborne Kindelein 123 Liebster Immanuel, Herzog der Frommen 124 Meinen Jesum lass ich nicht 125 Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin 126 Erhalt uns, Herr, bei deinem Wort 127 Herr Jesu Christ, wahr' Mensch und Gott 128 Auf Christi Himmelfahrt allein 129 Gelobet sei der Herr, mein Gott 130 Herr Gott, dich loben alle wir 131 Aus der Tiefen rufe ich, Herr, zu dir 131a Fugue G Minor from cantata 131 [probably not authentic] 132 Bereitet die Wege, bereitet die Bahn! 133 Ich freue mich in dir 134 Ein Herz, das seinen Jesum lebend weiß 134a Die Zeit, die Tag und Jahre macht 135 Ach Herr, mich armen Sünder 136 Erforsche mich, Gott, und erfahre mein Herz 137 Lobe den Herren, den mächtigen König der Ehren 138 Warum betrübst du dich, mein Herz? 139 Wohl dem, der sich auf seinen Gott 140 Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme 141 Das ist je gewisslich wahr [by Georg Philipp Telemann] 142 Uns ist ein Kind geboren [probably not authentic] 143 Lobe den Herrn, meine Seele II 144 Nimm, was dein ist, und gehe hin 145 Ich lebe, mein Herze, zu deinem Ergötzen 146 Wir müssen durch viel Trübsal in das Reich Gottes eingehen 147 Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben 147a Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben [music lost] 148 Bringet dem Herrn Ehre seines Namens 149 Man singet mit Freuden vom Sieg in den Hütten der Gerechten 150 Nach dir, Herr, verlanget mich 151 Süßer Trost, mein Jesus kömmt 152 Tritt auf die Glaubensbahn 153 Schau, lieber Gott, wie meine Feind 154 Mein liebster Jesus ist verloren 155 Mein Gott, wie lang, ach lange? 156 Ich steh mit einem Fuß im Grabe 157 Ich lasse dich nicht, du segnest mich denn! 158 Der Friede sei mit dir 159 Sehet! Wir gehn hinauf gen Jerusalem 160 Ich weiß, dass mein Erlöser lebt [by Georg Philipp Telemann] 161 Komm, du süße Todesstunde 162 Ach! ich sehe, itzt, da ich zur Hochzeit gehe 163 Nur jedem das Seine! 164 Ihr, die ihr euch von Christo nennet 165 O heilges Geist- und Wasserbad 166 Wo gehest du hin? 167 Ihr Menschen, rühmet Gottes Liebe 168 Tue Rechnung! Donnerwort 169 Gott soll allein mein Herze haben 170 Vergnügte Ruh, beliebte Seelenlust 171 Gott, wie dein Name, so ist auch dein Ruhm 172 Erschallet, ihr Lieder, erklinget, ihr Saiten! 173 Erhöhtes Fleisch und Blut 173a Durchlauchtster Leopold 174 Ich liebe den Höchsten von ganzem Gemüte 175 Er rufet seinen Schafen mit Namen 176 Es ist ein trotzig und verzagt Ding 177 Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ 178 Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält 179 Siehe zu, dass deine Gottesfurcht nicht Heuchelei sei 180 Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele 181 Leichtgesinnte Flattergeister 182 Himmelskönig, sei willkommen 183 Sie werden euch in den Bann tun II 184 Erwünschtes Freudenlicht 184a [text lost] 185 Barmherziges Herze der ewigen Liebe 186 Ärgre dich, o Seele, nicht 186a Ärgre dich, o Seele, nicht [music lost] 187 Es wartet alles auf dich 188 Ich habe meine Zuversicht 189 Meine Seele rühmt und preist [possibly by Georg Melchior Hoffmann] 190 Singet dem Herrn ein neues Lied [incomplete] 190a Singet dem Herrn ein neues Lied [music lost] 191 Gloria in excelsis Deo 192 Nun danket alle Gott [incomplete] 193 Ihr Tore zu Zion [incomplete] 193a Ihr Häuser des Himmels, ihr scheinenden Lichter [music lost] 194 Höchsterwünschtes Freudenfest 194a [text and music lost] 195 Dem Gerechten muss das Licht immer wieder aufgehen 196 Der Herr denket an uns 197 Gott ist unsre Zuversicht 197a Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe [incomplete] 198 Laß, Fürstin, lass noch einen Strahl 199 Mein Herze schwimmt im Blut 200 Bekennen will ich seinen Namen [incomplete] 201 Geschwinde, ihr wirbelnden Winde 202 Weichet nur, betrübte Schatten 203 Amore traditore 204 Ich bin in mir vergnügt 205 Zerreißet, zersprenget, zertrümmert die Gruft 205a Blast Lärmen, ihr Feinde! verstärket die Macht [music lost] 206 Schleicht, spielende Wellen, und murmelt gelinde! 207 Vereinigte Zwietracht der wechselnden Saiten 207a Auf, schmetternde Töne der muntern Trompeten 208 Was mir behagt, ist nur die muntre Jagd! 208a Was mir behagt, ist nur die muntre Jagd [music lost] 209 Non sa che sia dolore 210 O holder Tag, erwünschte Zeit 210a O angenehme Melodei! [incomplete] 211 Schweigt stille, plaudert nicht 212 Mer hahn en neue Oberkeet 213 Laßt uns sorgen, lasst uns wachen 214 Tönet, ihr Pauken! Erschallet, Trompeten! 215 Preise dein Glücke, gesegnetes Sachsen 216 Vergnügte Pleißenstadt [fragment] 216a Erwählte Pleißenstadt [music lost] 217 Gedenke, Herr, wie es uns geht [probably not authentic] 218 Gott der Hoffnung erfülle euch [by Georg Philipp Telemann] 219 Siehe, es hat überwunden der Löwe [by Georg Philipp Telemann] 220 Lobt ihn mit Herz und Munde [probably not authentic] 221 Wer sucht die Pracht, wer wünscht den Glanz [probably not authentic] 222 Mein Odem ist schwach [by Johann Ernst Bach] 223 Meine Seele soll Gott loben [fragment] 224 Reisst euch los, bekränkte Stimmen [fragment of an aria] 244a Klagt, Kinder, klagt es aller Welt [music lost] 249a Entfliehet, verschwindet, entweichet, ihr Sorgen 249b Verjaget, zerstreuet, zerrüttet, ihr Sterne [music lost] 1045 [fragment, text lost] Anh.I 1 Gesegnet ist die Zuversicht [music lost, possibly by Telemann] Anh.I 2 Kantate zum 19. Sonntag nach Trinitatis [text and music lost] Anh.I 190 Ich bin ein Pilgrim auf der Welt [music lost] Anh.I 191 Leb ich oder leb ich nicht [music lost] Anh.I 3 Gott, gib dein Gerichte dem Könige [music lost] Anh.I 4 Wünschet Jerusalem Glück [music lost] Anh.I 192 Die 2. Mühlhausener Ratswechselkantate [text and music lost] Anh.I 193 Herrscher des Himmels, König der Ehren [music lost] Anh.I 5 Lobet den Herrn, alle seine Heerscharen [music lost] Anh.I 6 Dich loben die lieblichen Strahlen der Sonne [music lost] Anh.I 7 Heut ist gewiss ein guter Tag [music lost] Anh.I 194 Geburtstagskantate [text and music lost] Anh.I 8 Neujahrskantate [text and music lost] Anh.I 195 Murmelt nur, ihr heitern Bäche [music lost] Anh.I 9 Entfernet euch, ihr heitern Sterne [music lost] Anh.I 10 So kämpfet nur, ihr muntern Töne [music lost] Anh.I 11 Es lebet der König, der Vater im Lande [music lost] Anh.I 12 Frohes Volk, vernügte Sachsen [music lost] Anh.I 13 Willkommen! Ihr herrschenden Götter der Erden [music lost] Anh.I 14 Sein Segen fließt daher wie ein Strom [music lost] Anh.I 196 Auf, süß entzückende Gewalt [music lost] Anh.I 15 Siehe der Hüter Israel [text and music lost] Anh.I 16 Schließt die Gruft! ihr Trauerglocken [music lost] Anh.I 17 Mein Gott, nimm die gerechte Seele [music lost] Anh.I 18 Froher Tag, verlangte Stunden [music lost] Anh.I 19 Thomana saß annoch betrübt [music lost] Anh.I 224 Reißt euch los, bekränkte Sinnen [fragment] Anh.I 197 Ihr wallenden Wolken [text and music lost] Anh.I 199 Siehe, eine Jungfrau ist schwanger [text and music lost] Anh.I 20 Lateinische Ode [text and music lost] Anh.I 1210 Wo sind meine Wunderwerke [music lost] Anh.I 1211 Der Herr ist freundlich dem, der auf ihn harret [music lost] Anh.I 1212 Vergnügende Flammen, verdoppelt die Macht [music lost] Bach Cantata Page
Created by Walter F. Bischof



And I read a very interesting article somewhere -d amn I can't remember where, about a blind guy who could ride a bike - did so by making clicking noises whose echo guided him. This is true.

what link failed in the chain of custody to lose all those cantadas? and at least one has questionable identity as being Bach's --

was BAch really where he said he was when he was writing all those cantadas that have now turned up missing?

of all things to get my thread highjacked by -- MUSIC -- and it ain't even music with words -- like JBIAAWALIP -- or an album by the Roches --

back to the thread topic, i guess there isn't a whole lot out there of confirmed positive results or admissions relating to riders while on Postal/Discovery . . .

MAYBE that means that some of those who couldn't race (or couldn't race any longer) without drugs left Disco/Postal -- that or else when the weight of an entire race/season fell on their shoulders after leaving Disco/Postal, they weren't up to the task

this is NOT to impugn ALL who left Postal/Disco -- some left and have never tested positive

Weezy -- your message box is full.

Dave.

Post of the month, amifan! Congratulations.

Peace

Where was Bach? Let's see, he had 20+ kids. Hmmm

Sorry Weezy, to redirect to the musical side of this thread yet again, but small correction please - the cantatas are with words ... they are sung...

Here have a listen.. scroll down the page till you see the listings and click on 'reinhören' (listen) try this one - Mein Herze schwimmt im Blut just for the title alone

see, ami, that just goes to show you have AMUSICAL i am

and, to make matters worse, i don't even have speakers on my computer

grins, Louise

Postal goes back to 1996. So that's 12 years with no rider, not one, who was officially sanctioned.

Now, you might be the one requiring some attention to accuracy.

Ivan Basso?

Don't lay that off on CSC. Disco was fully culpable in that they hired him with full knowledge of O.P. implications and in full breach of the O.P. no-hire policy.

Rode for Disco. Admitted. Two Year Ban. It is on their shift. Period.

Dave.

WOuld someone please enlighten me on the case of Giampaolo Mondini?

He was sanctioned while on Postal -- and sacked from the team -- but this was for a before-Postal positive, correct?

Yes, it stemmed from the raids during the 2001 Giro, when Mondini rode for Mercatone-Uno.

according to the original post:





Basso's ban was not for anything (i.e., "doping") that happened during the operative time he was involved with Postal or Discovery.



as far as i can tell, Basso's ban did NOT stem from acts he did or allegedly did or was proved to done or admitted doing while on Disco.



MAYBE he was sanctioned because he signed with Disco -- sad to think that he might have gotten a bye or a pass/get-out-of-jail-free card (reference to Monopoly game; nothing more or less) had he not been so brazen as to sign with Johan.

I really don't think that even merits a maybe, weezy. Scarponi was suspended for the same thing and he rode for Acqua and Sapone.

CONI recommended Mondini for sanctioning on April 6th, 2002. Mondini was fired the next day. Postal was the first team to fire one of the 13 riders recommended for sanctioning by CONI on the 6th. He was sanctioned by the FCI in "early" May of 2002.

Basso was suspended by the Discovery team on April 24, 2007. Basso's request to leave the Discovery team was granted on May 01, 2007. Basso was questioned by CONI on May 02, 2007. Basso confessed on May 7th, 2007 to being involved in Operation Puerto. CONI recommended his sanction on May 15th. Basso was sanctioned by the FCI on May 16th.

Both sanctions were the result of doping or attempted doping that occurred while they were members of other teams. Both sanctions occured when the riders weren't a part of the Postal/Discovery team. Both of those facts being the case, it would be a weird act of accounting to claim they were sanctioned while being a P/D rider. Neither rider had a doping positive that occurred when they were a P/D rider, nor were they found in possession of doping products when they were a P/D rider, nor were they in any other way found to be doping while being a P/D rider. No, Mondini was sanctioned for doping while he was a Mercatone Uno rider. Basso was sanctioned for doping or attempted doping while he was a CSC rider.

That's a pretty silly line to draw. Even ignoring that Armstrong, Hamilton, Landis, Heras, Hincapie, and Contador have all been linked to doping (by varying degrees, esp re:Heras and Contador) while members of the team, we do know for a fact that Andreu and at least one other anonymous (Vaughters?) Postal rider was doping, by their own admission. We also know, also by his own admission, that Basso had intended to dope up for the '07 Tour while on Disco. That's three confirmed USPS/Disco dopers right there.

Careful Velo, ChrisH is about to explain the new accounting to you.

And, Weezy, I wasn't arguing with the original post (which, obviously Andreu counts as one such example), but with ChrisH's statement about 12 years with no official sanction.

Since Basso was on Disco when officially sanctioned, that would meet ChrisH's narrow view even if he can't read his own writing.

My point being to further that example in that Disco was clearly aware of the high likelihood of a positive sanction when they hired him. That would make them far more directly complicit than CSC, as we have no proof that CSC had any such information while Basso was there. When such information was made available, he was fired.

Dave.

I wrote that Basso was off of the team on May 1st and he was sanctioned on May 16th. I wrote those paragraphs in chronological order. I have no idea how you could have read that so badly. Dyslexia? This should be an interesting explanation ...

Those dates are accurate to within a day as there may have been a delay in the reporting.

Hi Chris

Was he not first suspended, with pay(!), AFTER (!) CONI declared that it was pursuing the case?

Don't the rules indicate that you are ineligible to race if there is an anti-doping action pending?

Was he not riding for disco when coni initiated this action?

Would you like to double check the timeline just prior to your dates? Wasn't it something like April 26 when disco RESPONDED?

Just asking.

Dave.

Ps I am in Montreal today. Shall I drop in and say hello to Dick?
<smilie>

Don't! Tax lawyers are very very expensive

I'm willing to bet that Dave can afford it. He posts like a big spender

So now you're confusing "officially sanctioned" with "pursuing the case". Dave, there are an infinite number of ways you can be wrong. It is pointless to display all of them. Special treatment is not given for high post counts.

Regardless, Basso confessed to involvement with Fuentes while he was a member of CSC. To be clear, the confession occurred when he was a member of no team. The involvement with Fuentes occurred when he was a member of CSC.


No.

Basso's "confession" was that he only intended to dope for the '07 Tour, ie his only "plan" to dope was to dope while a member of the Discovery team. He never admitted to any kind of doping while at CSC.

Not that anyone believes him, of course, but that was the only thing that Basso actually admitted to.

No, not even close, the blood bags were "intended" for the '06 Giro and possibly the '06 Tour. Basso won the '06 Giro while riding with CSC. The blood bags were confiscated prior to during the '06 Giro timeframe.

Edit: Screw it, close enough. If anyone wants more specificity, ask strategy.

oops, you're right. My bad.

"There are still lots of possibilities to cheat, without anybody proving it....Right now you have to say: Only the dumb ones get caught. Or the poor ones, who can't afford the expensive doping."

Jorg Jaksche, Charter member of the "Never Tested positive" club along with Lance Armstrong, Ivan Basso, David Miller, Frankie Andreau, Christophe Moreau, Alex Zulle, Richard Virenque....all admitted dopers who never tested positive

The Basso/Disco problem could have easily been avoided. If cycling was genuinely serious about stopping doping, then any DS that hires a rider under suspicion like Basso ought to be able to guarentee the rider's non-involvement in the scandal, or not hire him at all. If the rider turns out to be involved, the responsible DS should be fired. Bruyneel should have made exactly this pledge "If Basso turns out to be involved, I will take responsibility".

Similarly, when Riis told us that he was the man responsible for Basso's training program and boasted about Basso's ideal blood values, he also should have been held responsible when Basso was revealed as a blood doper.

The fact that nothing like this ever happens simply underlines how the doping DSes and the doping doctors continue to run the sport and reap the rewards, while riders have to take the fall for doping offenses. Nonetheless, so-called cycling fans continue to support the doper DSes and their team structures--just look at the popularity of CSC and Disco on this MB.

Setting aside dates and sequences etc (and at my age it's all just becoming a blur anyway ), I guess the basic question comes down to:

If Basso was doping at CSC, does anyone think he would've stopped while at Disco?

That's a rhetorical question, btw.

If you are in Montreal an still want to say hello to dick p can you pass along a message for me?


Burrrrrakkkkkkk #### bird #### bird .....burrrrrrakkkkkkkk..... on the take on the take ....shifty shifty ...on the take.... dude has a lot of jack for a lowBE in poor old WADA. .....burrrakkkkkkkk #### bird.

(Edited out by mod.)

there are four people who have said on tape that Lance admitted doping to them, (edited) it is the truth.