Stefan Schumi, wins TTs, attacks mountains, and seventh in the sprint on the Camps Elysee!?!? Options

[RTT]

Is this a joke i don't get, am i blind or is the article changed?

Can't find it

I said that like 4 posts up concerning this.. is there an echo in here??

[sundaymorning]

Is this a joke i don't get, am i blind or is the article changed?

Can't find it

Cyclingnews changes articles a lot. Earlier today the article said Garmin was interested in Schumacher (Katyusha also). Now that paragraph has been cut down to a single sentence saying Schumacher should have little difficulty finding a team. Maybe someone at Garmin and/or Katyusha didn't agree with the statement.

[Leafcake]

there's no dope that makes you a smarter racer....

I disagree. For instance, don’t the brains consume a chunk of oxygen? Boost your oxygen intake; more power to the brain.
Or, to put it differently, doesn’t exhaustion compromise lucidity of thought? Decision making? Sift some PEDs into that body, and you clear the way for the optimal instant decision to be made (ok) for that brain. Not saying that PEDs make you smarter per se but, since stress and exhaustion seriously compromise ones mental judgments (as often happens to riders) using PEDs could actually make you relatively smarter under those conditions.

[Hombre]

I love to be wrong but will say it will be a million years before Garmin gets Schumi.
If I am wrong, then it puts a different light on his rides.
Nah, no chance I am off here.

Vaughters must do deep background on the riders he selects.
I wonder how it gets done.
If he gets to see the passport.

[floridacyclist]

Vaughters must do deep background on the riders he selects.

And what if during one of these deep background checks on a rider he was considering hiring it came to light the guy roomed, trained, ate, drank, socialized and was best friends with a doper? What are the odds that a guy struggling to get a pro contract while riding clean in a dirty peloton, in that situation, could be trusted to be clean?

Vaughters strikes me as no different than Bob Stapleton. Here no evil, see no evil, and don't go pokin' around too much in search of it either. There was Stapleton carrying on about all their anti-doping nonsense at T-Mobile, while hiring Gonchar/Honchar, failing to bother investigating the team doctors, failing to do any serious due diligence, and stepping up to hire Armstrong's right-hand man the second he came available. Better to create an internal pre-test screen to ensure nobody's going to embarrass the outfit and get busted. And so long as they're clean on the screen, then not much else matters. If there's a way out there to dope while testing clean, so be it. Just don't risk ruining the image. And don't screw up and get caught. Same as it ever was. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Heck, everyone seems to have forgotten, Vaughters had exploratory talks with FLL, and signaled that if Landis managed to wriggle off the charges, he love to hire him.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=new...jan07/jan21news

Vaughters didn't need to do "deep background" on Landis to know the score there. He already knew it. He knew how the USPS program worked, how the stuff was smuggled in, that Landis was ticked at Lance for flushing his goods down the toilet to spite him. And yet he was in exploratory talks?

This post has been edited by floridacyclist: Jul 29 2008, 09:08 PM

[filipo]

And what if during one of these deep background checks on a rider he was considering hiring it came to light the guy roomed, trained, ate, drank, socialized and was best friends with a doper?

He'd hire the guy. His name is Dave Zabriskie.

But, in fairness to Vaughters, florida, the same article you cite quotes him thus:

Vaughters was keen to stress he did not want his team to be seen as being tolerant towards doping. "Unless there was a full exoneration of Floyd, we wouldn't be interested" in any further discussions, he added.

I think JV's attitude is more one of "forget the past; this is how you ride NOW." I think more than a few of his guys might have dabbled in the dark arts pre-Slipstream, but I have much confidence -- though no guarantees -- in their current cleanliness. My guess, knowing what little I know, is that there are a lot of riders who doped because they "had to" but are pretty psyched to get off the hot sauce.

This post has been edited by filipo: Jul 29 2008, 09:19 PM

[buddy]

Schumi certainly did his best to stand out in the tour this year. His climbing was ok ..... limited his losses but no where near the top guys ......his TTing was great .... two stage wins but not by huge margins as another rider used to do..... so I don't think he can be faulted too much there.

His sprint on the last stage. Ok .... he got 7th. Is someone here going to tell me that he took something that miraculously made him much faster in a sprint. I'm sorry I don't buy that one. You don't just suddenly develop extra horsepower. You can sprint or you can't. It is not like EPO would help a sprint. Steroids during a training block yes but at the tour ..... I don't think so ..... how do you get away with something like that.

I think Schumi just had a great tour. I am sure he was tested plenty of times so we will no doubt find out if there was something funny going on.

Otherwise I say great ride by Schumi.

Thanks,

Buddy

[option]

He'd hire the guy. His name is Dave Zabriskie.

But, in fairness to Vaughters, florida, the same article you cite quotes him thus:
I think JV's attitude is more one of "forget the past; this is how you ride NOW." I think more than a few of his guys might have dabbled in the dark arts pre-Slipstream, but I have much confidence -- though no guarantees -- in their current cleanliness. My guess, knowing what little I know, is that there are a lot of riders who doped because they "had to" but are pretty psyched to get off the hot sauce.

Filipo, I agree. Florida, I think that nuanced litle position put by filipo is one the riders didn't get either. Pretty sure they thought the score was exactly what you said. It was only at the time of Sinkewitz' bust that the T-mobile boys realised it was "for real for real". I think a few who have closer ties to national federations still don't get it, but that's just my suspicion, so is neither here nor there.

Florida, I think you're exactly right about the "clean on the screen"; I think that's why Rogers didn't ride the Tour. The only sin from the past worth mentioning is one that might damage the brand now. Whether or not Rogers was on that little convoy to Freiburg, the risk to Stapleton was a little too much to have, especially with a brand new sponsor on board. Wouldn't be surprised to see him ride elsewhere next season.

[buddy]

I think you are drawing a long bow with regards to Rogers. There has been no proof to my knowledge of his involvement with the Freiburg clinic or any other doping for that matter. From memory I think it was said that not all T Moblie tour riders went to the clinic.

The fact that Rogers hadn't recovered sufficiently from glandular fever to allow sufficient recovery during the tour is certainly a more logical reason than the one you prescribe. I have a swimming daughter who is still affected two years after a bout of glandual fever. I was surprised to see Rogers even racing pre tour.

Obviously he didn't think he was well enough recovered to take on the most arduous of sporting events and do justice to both himself and the team.

Thanks,

Buddy

[bartlebythegeo]

Maybe he took his inspiration from Barney Riis who expects his riders to give no less than 60%.

Schumi almost climbed as well as Voigt and Cancellara!

[option]

I think you are drawing a long bow with regards to Rogers. There has been no proof to my knowledge of his involvement with the Freiburg clinic or any other doping for that matter. From memory I think it was said that not all T Moblie tour riders went to the clinic.

The fact that Rogers hadn't recovered sufficiently from glandular fever to allow sufficient recovery during the tour is certainly a more logical reason than the one you prescribe. I have a swimming daughter who is still affected two years after a bout of glandual fever. I was surprised to see Rogers even racing pre tour.

Obviously he didn't think he was well enough recovered to take on the most arduous of sporting events and do justice to both himself and the team.

Thanks,

Buddy

He was racing well enough to get 13th in the Dauphine in his second race back.

He was racing well enough to deny that he was unfit for the Tour (quoted in the Canberra Times) after Rolf Aldag had already said he was not fit enough to race.

From that , it's clear that it was a team decision, not Rogers' own. The "unfit" story does not make sense.

So why did he not ride? Why did Stapleton not want his best GC rider, who was riding into form, in the Tour?

He was on the same team as Sinke in Quickstep and at T-Mobile. This was the 2006 Tour team:

21 Andreas Klöden (Ger)
22 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita)
23 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr)
25 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita)
26 Michael Rogers (Aus)
27 Patrik Sinkewitz (Ger)

Rogers may well not have been on that convoy to Freiburg. I absolutely agree there's been no proof of any doping with Rogers, at Mapei, Quickstep, T-mobile or High Road. That's why he's still competing. (I recall Millar having said words to the effect that Rogers was clean in the 2003 WC ITT). But I am saying that there's a risk he was doping: Sinke has admitted to team sponsored doping. Look at that team again. In my view, Stapleton didn't want to take the risk, regardless of the truth. I also wonder if Aldag has now let Stapleton know exactly what went on at T-mobile during his time there.

[Jimmy]

He was racing well enough to get 13th in the Dauphine in his second race back.

He was racing well enough to deny that he was unfit for the Tour (quoted in the Canberra Times) after Rolf Aldag had already said he was not fit enough to race.

From that , it's clear that it was a team decision, not Rogers' own. The "unfit" story does not make sense.

So why did he not ride? Why did Stapleton not want his best GC rider, who was riding into form, in the Tour?

. . . .

I think that's now debatable. I might have said so at the beginning of the year, but Kirchen has really done well again this TdF - exceeding my expectations - not sure what those of Aldag etc. were.

Rogers' ride in the Dauphine was alright but proved he was still quite a bit short of full fitness - and a GT is a lot more stress for an underprepared rider. So regardless of what Rogers claims, I think there was a reasonable question over his fitness. Rogers might have started had the team set-up differently - but they've set up with mainly a sprinters squad supporting Cavendish. That's not proved to be the wrong decision.

I think we'll see him start in Germany. While Columbia has moved their registration to the US there is still a large German emphasis on the team - so the Deutschland Tour is an important race for them - and this year it has moved almost a month later to overlap with the Vuelta. It will be difficult for Kirchen to hold his form till then so I suspect we'll see Rogers leading the GC line there.

[Drongo]

He was racing well enough to get 13th in the Dauphine in his second race back.

He was racing well enough to deny that he was unfit for the Tour (quoted in the Canberra Times) after Rolf Aldag had already said he was not fit enough to race.

From that , it's clear that it was a team decision, not Rogers' own. The "unfit" story does not make sense.

So why did he not ride? Why did Stapleton not want his best GC rider, who was riding into form, in the Tour?

He was on the same team as Sinke in Quickstep and at T-Mobile. This was the 2006 Tour team:

21 Andreas Klöden (Ger)
22 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita)
23 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr)
25 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita)
26 Michael Rogers (Aus)
27 Patrik Sinkewitz (Ger)

Rogers may well not have been on that convoy to Freiburg. I absolutely agree there's been no proof of any doping with Rogers, at Mapei, Quickstep, T-mobile or High Road. That's why he's still competing. (I recall Millar having said words to the effect that Rogers was clean in the 2003 WC ITT). But I am saying that there's a risk he was doping: Sinke has admitted to team sponsored doping. Look at that team again. In my view, Stapleton didn't want to take the risk, regardless of the truth. I also wonder if Aldag has now let Stapleton know exactly what went on at T-mobile during his time there.

Can't find the article. Got a link? This is the closest I can find: link, but the title doesn't bear out its contents. This article refers to Rogers not having ruled himself out, but doesn't quote him and may be referring to the earlier article.

Two points: first, it's clear it was a team decision; secondly, the important factor is said to be about Rogers' Olympic preparation.

Your point may well still be a good one; I suspect it is. But I don't know whether Rogers has been imprudent enough to be quoted as saying he was fit enough to race, when Aldag was saying something else in Germany and then, after presenting as a decision still be made, in Australia also. I wonder if Rogers might have briefed his local paper to the effect that he wanted to race, though... who knows?

This post has been edited by Drongo: Jul 30 2008, 04:40 AM

[option]

Can't find the article. Got a link? This is the closest I can find: link, but the title doesn't bear out its contents. This article refers to Rogers not having ruled himself out, but doesn't quote him and may be referring to the earlier article.

Two points: first, it's clear it was a team decision; secondly, the important factor is said to be about Rogers' Olympic preparation.

Your point may well still be a good one; I suspect it is. But I don't know whether Rogers has been imprudent enough to be quoted as saying he was fit enough to race, when Aldag was saying something else in Germany and then, after presenting as a decision still be made, in Australia also. I wonder if Rogers might have briefed his local paper to the effect that he wanted to race, though... who knows?

I can't find the link, Drongo. This link shows that it was a team decision though:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local...nce/798855.aspx

Even if Kirchen was stronger, having Rogers' help in the mountains would have given Columbia a real boost.

I know what the story was, Drongo. I just don't buy it. I like Rogers, and wish him well - he's attacking when he can be, tough as nails, and seems to be a good egg. I do wonder if his future is best on Columbia or elsewhere.

Edit - cross referenced article referring to Franke's information - [http://www.bicycle.net/2008/doping-expert-werner-franke-wants-t-mobile-investigation-stepped-up]


This post has been edited by option: Jul 30 2008, 05:29 AM

[buddy]

Option .... I think you are still underestimating the effects of glandular fever. Sure Rogers did well to finish 13th in the Dauphine however what was his recovery like during and at the conclusion of the race.

The Dauphine is a lot different to doing the tour and the team would not want to take someone they thought could not go the distance. Nor would Rogers really want to put in a poor performance which could also have severe health repecussions if not fully recovered.

Let him keep training ... go to the Olympics ......win a gold in the TT then off the the Vuelta and have a crack at that. I see that as the most likely reason .... not the sinister one you are proposing. Well lets scrap that bit about the Vuelta. I didn't realise High Road (Columbia) hadn't been invited. So he will have to target the tour of Germany perhaps.

Thanks,

Buddy

This post has been edited by buddy: Jul 30 2008, 07:17 AM

[Strategy]

I think JV's attitude is more one of "forget the past; this is how you ride NOW." I think more than a few of his guys might have dabbled in the dark arts pre-Slipstream, but I have much confidence -- though no guarantees -- in their current cleanliness. My guess, knowing what little I know, is that there are a lot of riders who doped because they "had to" but are pretty psyched to get off the hot sauce.

That is the pragmatic attitude, and quite frankly - if you're a DS in this business, I would think you'd have to be pragmatic.

You can never guarantee that a rider whom you are signing has never doped before. Dig long enough, and you'll no doubt find some unsavoury rumor about every rider... or some dubious friendship... or something. As a matter of fact, the DS doing the signing has no doubt himself dabbled in the "dark arts" in his career at some point.

The only thing you can (hopefully) ensure is that he is not doping while riding for you.

As long as a rider is good (and Schumacher is that), fits within your team, and is not in some obvious kind of doping trouble... then why wouldn't one sign the person?

[bodomaniac]

Regardless what everyone thinks of Schumi, you've got to rate him as one of the top 5 riders to win the Olympics Road Race and/or ITT. Would be pretty awesome if he could pull of the "double."

Wow, check these comments out on Schumi by fellow German, Andreas Kloeden, as taken from CN's website.

"Although it was always clear to me that [Schumacher] is a very good and talented cyclist, his outstanding performance during the two time trials and the yellow jersey, I was somewhat surprised," he said. "In any event, I am very pleased for Schumi."

This from someone likely to ride in support of Schumi at the Olympics and/or World's road race. Not exactly a glowing endorsement - especially from someone that still hasn't completely evaded the shadows of doping allegations himself from last years T-Mob Tour Team. Is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black?

Read full article here.

[buddy]

He would certainly go in as a favourite given his tour ending form. The Olympics course in meant to be quite selective too and Schumi's performance on the tour climbs could only enhance his chances.

Thanks,

Buddy

[VdB]

Schumacher is so obviously on the wrong side of the tracks. Burst onto the cycling scene a few years ago on a second-rate team after being dropped by T-Mobile for lack of promise, had a few "near-misses" in the past when it comes to doping, and now he suddenly turns into a world-class TT'ist at the Tour and, even when going on several monster mountain breaks, he didn't seem to become any weaker towards the end of the Tour (quite the contrary even).

Seriously...even if he doesn't get busted, credibility = zero.

[Kiwi]

As long as a rider is good (and Schumacher is that), fits within your team, and is not in some obvious kind of doping trouble... then why wouldn't one sign the person?

Well, if JV did sign Schumacher, maybe it would answer questions about his 'extraordinary' Tour ride.

JV might hire riders with troubled pasts but would presumably not touch someone currently on the sauce. The risk would simply be too great as a positive dope result would kill the team dead.

If JV was prepared to take Schumi on, he must be clean! I have my doubts that he will, though.