Tyler Hamilton and Operation Puerto, Potential implications re: lifetime ban. Options

[chris t]

let him ride

BUT, I deplore his attitude/behaviour


1 public defense fund
2 crits in Boulder specially arranged for him and MT Washington.

Pathological liar, might call this karma, but still does not justify prosecuting him again. Let the man earn an income, so atleast he will not call for donations to pay his mortgage in Boulder.

[Whareagle]

let him ride

BUT, I deplore his attitude/behaviour
1 public defense fund
2 crits in Boulder specially arranged for him and MT Washington.

Pathological liar, might call this karma, but still does not justify prosecuting him again. Let the man earn an income, so atleast he will not call for donations to pay his mortgage in Boulder.

Wrong again on both counts, White Man.

Don't forget - they're creating a defense fund for Floyd, too. Hmmm. Let's say you spent 35% of your overall net worth defending yourself. Would it be worth it to go for broke with a civil trial? How'd you like to be 33% poorer?

And the crits in Boulder at that location have been going on for a lot longer than Tyler's been living there...

Finally - Mt. Washington? Um, again - the race has been going on longer than Tyler's pro career, and they love the fact that they aren't sanctioned by anyone.

Keep spewing misinformation. If the TdC, the TdG, the TdMo and the TdU take off and are sustainable, it'll render "Les Grand Tours" IRRELEVENT.

[chris t]

Wrong again on both counts, White Man.

Don't forget - they're creating a defense fund for Floyd, too. Hmmm. Let's say you spent 35% of your overall net worth defending yourself. Would it be worth it to go for broke with a civil trial? How'd you like to be 33% poorer?

And the crits in Boulder at that location have been going on for a lot longer than Tyler's been living there...

Finally - Mt. Washington? Um, again - the race has been going on longer than Tyler's pro career, and they love the fact that they aren't sanctioned by anyone.

Keep spewing misinformation. If the TdC, the TdG, the TdMo and the TdU take off and are sustainable, it'll render "Les Grand Tours" IRRELEVENT.

ok, I may be wrong on the crits in Boulder, and the sentence structure might have been poor that left abiguity over Washington, but I was obviously not inferring the race had started on account of Tyler.

I thought I read those criteriums or the sreies of races he was involved in that were held in Boulder had been created, and he was behind the development of those crits. Obviously, Boulder has alot of crits before, during after etc, that did not and never will involve him.


IF Floyd solicits donations I would disagree to the same extent, innocent or guilty. I assume it is a tax deduction, not sure on this, but he moved over to Phonak with a contract over 1 million per annum, so Floyds not short of money.

However well meaning, I am sure people gave to Hamilton who rented their own houses, or apartments, and had much less salubrious lifestyles, and than Hamilton himself, however little they gave.

Spending down 33% of networth for a defense is part of the job description unfortunately. Your concern should be pointed towards Santi Perez and others who were on about $US50 thousand and could not raise a defense.

Its not the money per se, its the principle, putting yourself ahead of others. Are you charity, or is it so necessary that common folks make a lobbying effort vicariously via Hamilton that WADA/UCI has inadequate systems and needs to be restructured or disbanded. If you are a chairty and werre on one million per annum you might like to visit New Orleans.

If you solicit donations to a defense you are liable to prosecutions from fraud I would assume, but I think the greatest immorality is to resort to a political demagogy, in your communications, especially an anti-French theme.

Whareagle do you have evidence Landis is soliciting donations. Hypothetically, if you disagreed with such an action and saw potention illegality you might be able to donate a token some and then look to sue in a civil sense in the scenario the solicitor of donations was found guilty and more information had come out regarding that guilt. That civil suit might prompt action.

[DPCandND]

Chris T...You need to check your facts regarding the Boulder Crits and Mt. Washington, BEFORE typing. You lumped the Mt.W. comment in with the Boulder Crits comment, so you can't now...well... try to back it out. You were wrong on that one. The THdefense fund argument is valid...good opinion.

Whareagle -- Please watch the name calling, name association, etc. No need for that. Your points are valid and a good rebut to CT's post.

Just a friendly moderator POV...caution....thanks.

[Veloflash]

There is no problem in principle with a public defence fund as long as it is totally independent in initiation and administration of the rider.

Where Tyler Hamilton created an odour was that he claimed his defence fund was the creation of spontaneous combustion of his supporters. But then it was traced to being created and run from within the Tyler Hamilton Foundation and not at arms length from TH.

[Whareagle]

Your comments don't even merit a response. Go whistle in the wind.

[chris t]

Your comments don't even merit a response. Go whistle in the wind.

dichotomy or satire?

[vaunTrevi]

I don't need to check my facts DPCandND, as much as you might like to check your mouth/keypad with regards to your patronising moderating style.

You conflated crits in Boulder arranged for and by Hamilton with Mt Washington. Perhaps you should go back to high school and take comprehension classes mate.

The point was, Hamilton persisted in riding in competition whilst under suspension. They would not cop this in Australia. There was not deliberate misinformation, I never intended to be specious, I merely was trying to appease Whareagle.

Both races have been going on for years, but as I see it, you could argue they were organised for Hamilton as he stepped in to the series as a sponsor with his Tyler Hamilton Foundation and was to be a drawcard for charity. I did not know the Boulder crits had been going on for years, but this is not an academic resource and I don't see the need to reference everything I write.

If Whareagle cannot assess correctly the contention I made I should not be held to such ridiculous claims that DPCandND and Whareagle made, especially with my efforts to appease. Misinformation? Nope, misinterpretation of my point. White Man? supposed to be an epithet?

GT's rendered irrelevant? Come on, when cycling becomes much more than a niche sport in America will be the day... such bombastic words dont behove you Whareagle.

Chris,
Did you ever see that Monty Python show where the guy goes in an office and he ends up having the guy arguing with every thing he says to the guy behind the desk??
Eventuall he says, "I didn't come here for an argument."
"Oh you didn't? what did you come here for?"
The client says, "I paid for an hour of abuse."
"Oh sorry mate, Abuse is three doors down the hall on your left."
Think about that for a minute...
Vaughn
Say no more mate, say no more...

[chris t]

Vaughn I think you will find I was appeasing Whareagle when both he and DPCandND misread the point entirely.

The germane point, Hamilton flouted the sport when riding in Boulder and Mt Washington. The point was not changed if he organised psonsored or was any way not involved with the running of both events.

He was involved with the runnin of one event.

Those events pre-existed.

I never said Mt Washington pre-existed. It was open to interpretation in the grammatical structure of the sentence. DPCandND's fault for chiding me over the misinterpretation.

[Bjørn P.Dal]

Chris,
Did you ever see that Monty Python show where the guy goes in an office and he ends up having the guy arguing with every thing he says to the guy behind the desk??
Eventuall he says, "I didn't come here for an argument."
"Oh you didn't? what did you come here for?"
The client says, "I paid for an hour of abuse."
"Oh sorry mate, Abuse is three doors down the hall on your left."
Think about that for a minute...
Vaughn
Say no more mate, say no more...

Yeah thats a great sketch, I was just watching it yesterday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3HaRFBSq9k

[pedallo]

The point was, Hamilton persisted in riding in competition whilst under suspension. They would not cop this in Australia. .

yes and the silly thing is if he was riding for charity - he could have easily got an exemption on his ban to ride the event.
what part of the word "banned" does hamilton not understand?
thanks
pedallo

[Steve in ATL]

what part of the word "banned" does hamilton not understand?
thanks
pedallo

What exactly was he banned from?

[MacRoadie]

Chris,
Did you ever see that Monty Python show where the guy goes in an office and he ends up having the guy arguing with every thing he says to the guy behind the desk??
Eventuall he says, "I didn't come here for an argument."
"Oh you didn't? what did you come here for?"
The client says, "I paid for an hour of abuse."
"Oh sorry mate, Abuse is three doors down the hall on your left."
Think about that for a minute...
Vaughn
Say no more mate, say no more...

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.....

[Whareagle]

What exactly was he banned from?

(exactly, but SHHH! We don't want to upset Chris & Flash & Zara's feasting on the reputation of the 132lb/60Kg boy from Somerville...)

[floyd]

ok, I may be wrong on the crits in Boulder, and the sentence structure might have been poor that left abiguity over Washington, but I was obviously not inferring the race had started on account of Tyler.

I thought I read those criteriums or the sreies of races he was involved in that were held in Boulder had been created, and he was behind the development of those crits. Obviously, Boulder has alot of crits before, during after etc, that did not and never will involve him.
IF Floyd solicits donations I would disagree to the same extent, innocent or guilty. I assume it is a tax deduction, not sure on this, but he moved over to Phonak with a contract over 1 million per annum, so Floyds not short of money.

However well meaning, I am sure people gave to Hamilton who rented their own houses, or apartments, and had much less salubrious lifestyles, and than Hamilton himself, however little they gave.

Spending down 33% of networth for a defense is part of the job description unfortunately. Your concern should be pointed towards Santi Perez and others who were on about $US50 thousand and could not raise a defense.

Its not the money per se, its the principle, putting yourself ahead of others. Are you charity, or is it so necessary that common folks make a lobbying effort vicariously via Hamilton that WADA/UCI has inadequate systems and needs to be restructured or disbanded. If you are a chairty and werre on one million per annum you might like to visit New Orleans.

If you solicit donations to a defense you are liable to prosecutions from fraud I would assume, but I think the greatest immorality is to resort to a political demagogy, in your communications, especially an anti-French theme.

Whareagle do you have evidence Landis is soliciting donations. Hypothetically, if you disagreed with such an action and saw potention illegality you might be able to donate a token some and then look to sue in a civil sense in the scenario the solicitor of donations was found guilty and more information had come out regarding that guilt. That civil suit might prompt action.

Hey Chris
I amm not in the mood to argue, but let me clear up a few things for you. First of all, it is not tax deductable for the donor although the money is not taxed for the recipient as long as it is spent on legal fees. Furthermore, I was signed to a contract under wich I was not meant to be a leader. The first year, I was paid 600,000 dollars and this year was to be paid 450,000 dollars. Living in Europe and USA and traveling between the two is not inexpensive so more or less you can calculate that it is a little more than 100,000 to live per year. After that, living in California and with federal taxes which combined add up to 42% of the remainder, you do the math and give me an idea if it is out of line to ask for help.

ok, I may be wrong on the crits in Boulder, and the sentence structure might have been poor that left abiguity over Washington, but I was obviously not inferring the race had started on account of Tyler.

I thought I read those criteriums or the sreies of races he was involved in that were held in Boulder had been created, and he was behind the development of those crits. Obviously, Boulder has alot of crits before, during after etc, that did not and never will involve him.
IF Floyd solicits donations I would disagree to the same extent, innocent or guilty. I assume it is a tax deduction, not sure on this, but he moved over to Phonak with a contract over 1 million per annum, so Floyds not short of money.

However well meaning, I am sure people gave to Hamilton who rented their own houses, or apartments, and had much less salubrious lifestyles, and than Hamilton himself, however little they gave.

Spending down 33% of networth for a defense is part of the job description unfortunately. Your concern should be pointed towards Santi Perez and others who were on about $US50 thousand and could not raise a defense.

Its not the money per se, its the principle, putting yourself ahead of others. Are you charity, or is it so necessary that common folks make a lobbying effort vicariously via Hamilton that WADA/UCI has inadequate systems and needs to be restructured or disbanded. If you are a chairty and werre on one million per annum you might like to visit New Orleans.

If you solicit donations to a defense you are liable to prosecutions from fraud I would assume, but I think the greatest immorality is to resort to a political demagogy, in your communications, especially an anti-French theme.

Whareagle do you have evidence Landis is soliciting donations. Hypothetically, if you disagreed with such an action and saw potention illegality you might be able to donate a token some and then look to sue in a civil sense in the scenario the solicitor of donations was found guilty and more information had come out regarding that guilt. That civil suit might prompt action.

Also, Santi Perez was paid more than I.

[floyd]

I don't need to check my facts DPCandND, as much as you might like to check your mouth/keypad with regards to your patronising moderating style.

You conflated crits in Boulder arranged for and by Hamilton with Mt Washington. Perhaps you should go back to high school and take comprehension classes mate.

The point was, Hamilton persisted in riding in competition whilst under suspension. They would not cop this in Australia. There was not deliberate misinformation, I never intended to be specious, I merely was trying to appease Whareagle.

Both races have been going on for years, but as I see it, you could argue they were organised for Hamilton as he stepped in to the series as a sponsor with his Tyler Hamilton Foundation and was to be a drawcard for charity. I did not know the Boulder crits had been going on for years, but this is not an academic resource and I don't see the need to reference everything I write.

If Whareagle cannot assess correctly the contention I made I should not be held to such ridiculous claims that DPCandND and Whareagle made, especially with my efforts to appease. Misinformation? Nope, misinterpretation of my point. White Man? supposed to be an epithet?

GT's rendered irrelevant? Come on, when cycling becomes much more than a niche sport in America will be the day... such bombastic words dont behove you Whareagle.

Hey Chris

I have the support and sponsors to promote a one day race in June or July of next year for which the prize money will be 1,000,000 dollars for first and another mil split for the next few places. What are your ideas on that. Do you think it is a good start in providing some competition to the grand tours so that they improve things or do you have a reason why it is self serving? Keep in mind that for winning the vuelta you get 30,000 euros, and for winning the tour you receive 400,000 euros.

[sundaymorning]

Hey Chris

I have the support and sponsors to promote a one day race in June or July of next year for which the prize money will be 1,000,000 dollars for first and another mil split for the next few places. What are your ideas on that. Do you think it is a good start in providing some competition to the grand tours so that they improve things or do you have a reason why it is self serving? Keep in mind that for winning the vuelta you get 30,000 euros, and for winning the tour you receive 400,000 euros.

haven't there been big payoff/high profile races in the u.s. before? they invariably lose steam. maybe you can pull it off for a year or two, but i'd bet it would be a money losing proposition (especially with that kind of purse). and if it's just one day it wont affect the tour anyway. the hundred year history of the tour and it's worldwide t.v. broadcast is it's importance, much more than the winning purse. it can generate it's 10 million dollar budget year after year. the vuelta and giro have shown they have staying power as well.

[MacRoadie]

I have no idea how we got this far off my original post, which simply questioned the logic behind attempting to separate as individual doping violations, the positive tests from the 2004 Giro and Olympics, and any association with OP which appears to be concurrent with the others.

Chris T's absolute butchering of the english language aside, what is the big deal concerning an accused individual soliciting donations for a defense fund, be it privately or publicly? As long as the choice to contribute is made freely, without duress or false representation, I really don't care nor have any right to care what anyone does with his or her money. I also don't care how much Floyd makes (no offense Floyd, just follow my logic). Whether he makes $30,000 or $3,000,000, if he asks for donations and his supporters choose do donate, that is their prerogative.

The only problem I could see as a potential issue, would be the Shanghaiing of a previously-existing event to serve as a fund-raiser for a special interest. We have all seen Susan G. Komen breast cancer runs, the Tour de Cure, etc. and the participants were all fully aware that the proceeds were going to specific causes. If a previously existing crit or road race all of a sudden became an avenue for contributing to a private, special interest such as a defense fund, then that would be stepping over the line.

[floyd]

haven't there been big payoff/high profile races in the u.s. before? they invariably lose steam. maybe you can pull it off for a year or two, but i'd bet it would be a money losing proposition (especially with that kind of purse). and if it's just one day it wont affect the tour anyway. the hundred year history of the tour and it's worldwide t.v. broadcast is it's importance, much more than the winning purse. it can generate it's 10 million dollar budget year after year. the vuelta and giro have shown they have staying power as well.

I think a lot of you guys overestimate the income of cyclists and also the importance of prize money for a given rider. If I had to estimate what the average rider earns, discounting the top 20 riders in the world, the remaining 500 (more or less) riders who ride for protour teams earn roughly 80 to 90 thousand euros per year. One reason why you all overestimate things is because you assume that teams adhere to the minimum salary, while you don't know things like when I joined the Postal Service team in 2003, even though I was paid 60,000 dollars, Dave Z. was paid 15,000 dollars for the year (his second year on the team by the way). On top of that we paid all of our own medical insurance and many other expenses which you would expect would be paid by the employers.

[cyclenut]

Personally I would be happy to donate to the Landis defense fund---money well spent in my opinion. And since its my money I can spend it as I please. I'm going to check the bank balance and then look for the link.