[frenchfry]

What law are you referring to that would make distribution of copied of documents illegal? Copyright? Trade Secret? I'm unaware of any. If they were forgeries - and Baker first presented them publicly as unauthenticated - then the worst that could happen is ridicule. Perhaps if they were filed in court with a claim to authenticity, like for example Orly Taitz and a birth certificate, there might be legal sanction, but that did not occur.

The content of those documents has never been questioned since LNDD admitted sending them during document production for the first hearing. The main issues of "forgery" seem to be document format and letterhead, which may be artifacts of scanning. I ask anyone to cite a anything that identifies "clear forgery" of the substantive content. I recall complaints about grammar, suggesting no native-speaker would ever make such a misteak, and therefore the entire thing must be fake, and I recall questions about the letterhead and page size -- on TBV -- that suggested things had been printed from electronic copies of some sort.

It has been reported that Baker was "invited" to talk by "officials", with notable lack of clarity about whether is is a formal, legal request of any weight. That does not make it clearly an "official request". I do not believe a proper, official legal demand has been made, only an informal, email request. Feel free to go back and re-read those reports with that in mind, looking for where there is anything but (so-far not done) speculation about future legal action. Usually when Police have the goods, they don't announce that they might request a warrant later -- they just do it.

As I said, I don't believe it is ALL done to discourage Landis. I freely admitted above the Authorities would be negligent to not ask questions. It is the lackluster pursuit that makes me wonder how seriously they are taking the legal question, and whether there are other considerations in play.

-dB

I recall seeing documents that were supposedly from LNDD that were blatent forgeries. However if it makes you feel good to keep repeating that the content of the documents was never questioned, go ahead. It could be that some of the released documents were originals while others were tampered with.

The "lackluster" pursuit as you call it is likely due to the fact that the investigation is centered on the EDF and Greenpeace hackings, which are certainly much more complicated and extremely sensitive on a political level than the 2 bit games played by Landis and his gang. The French justice system probably has other priorities than chasing Arnie Baker - though hopefully there will be more light shed on this in the future.

In any case, what makes this believable is that it is totally consistent with the tactics used by Landis and his team throughout the entire affair.

[D-Queued]

... It is the lackluster pursuit that makes me wonder how seriously they are taking the legal question, and whether there are other considerations in play.

-dB

Lackluster pursuit? Sorry, but isn't this a pretty big investigation right now?

No matter how much you want to promote the absurd notion that some French constabulary is motivated to pursue an entrapment strategy by asking Floyd surprise questions about his sexual preferences (Freudian slip?), oddly, Arnie and Floyd aren't even the central characters in this ongoing investigation.

Maybe you don't mean it this way, but this, again, looks like promoting prejudicial statements that come across as more spin doctoring than anything else.

There are other considerations in play - they are investigating EDF who was allegedly spying on Greenpeace.

What other considerations are you suggesting here? We have already heard from you about stinky cheese and sexual preferences. Are you suggesting that they are going to torture Floyd by making him eat Freedom Fries?

BTW - please share with us your expertise on copyright law, trade secrets or the willful dissemination of (altered)confidential material. Was the LNDD information used by any individual or group to solicit funding?

Dave.

This post has been edited by D-Queued: 04 August 2009 - 05:51 PM

[Surftel]

What law are you referring to that would make distribution of copied of documents illegal? Copyright? Trade Secret? I'm unaware of any. If they were forgeries - and Baker first presented them publicly as unauthenticated - then the worst that could happen is ridicule. Perhaps if they were filed in court with a claim to authenticity, like for example Orly Taitz and a birth certificate, there might be legal sanction, but that did not occur.

The content of those documents has never been questioned since LNDD admitted sending them during document production for the first hearing. The main issues of "forgery" seem to be document format and letterhead, which may be artifacts of scanning. I ask anyone to cite a anything that identifies "clear forgery" of the substantive content. I recall complaints about grammar, suggesting no native-speaker would ever make such a misteak, and therefore the entire thing must be fake, and I recall questions about the letterhead and page size -- on TBV -- that suggested things had been printed from electronic copies of some sort.

It has been reported that Baker was "invited" to talk by "officials", with notable lack of clarity about whether is is a formal, legal request of any weight. That does not make it clearly an "official request". I do not believe a proper, official legal demand has been made, only an informal, email request. Feel free to go back and re-read those reports with that in mind, looking for where there is anything but (so-far not done) speculation about future legal action. Usually when Police have the goods, they don't announce that they might request a warrant later -- they just do it.

As I said, I don't believe it is ALL done to discourage Landis. I freely admitted above the Authorities would be negligent to not ask questions. It is the lackluster pursuit that makes me wonder how seriously they are taking the legal question, and whether there are other considerations in play.

-dB

If it is so minor then why are Flandis and Arnie so scared to go to France and answer the charges?

This guy also thought it was OK to share copyrighted stuff
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology...nbaum-riaa.html

This post has been edited by Surftel: 04 August 2009 - 06:32 PM

[Steve in ATL]

If it is so minor then why are Flandis and Arnie so scared to go to France and answer the charges?

This guy also thought it was OK to share copyrighted stuff
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology...nbaum-riaa.html

Because it would cost an ass-ton of money and time?

[D-Queued]

Because it would cost an ass-ton of money and time?

Cheeky, yes, but can we still contribute to the FFF?

And, thanks for the link Suftel. Again, wasn't this stuff used to solicit funding? Maybe some of that money could be applied to pay for their trip.

Dave.

[Surftel]

Because it would cost an ass-ton of money and time?

I have a boat load of miles in my United account. I will contribute two tickets....but they have to go economy. Once they arrive in Paris their accomodations will be taken care of by the French Police.

[formerlyfit]

I may have this all ass about tit, but i believe that it is correct that the IP address linked to Baker was used to send out the documents, which is how the French police got interested, but that their investigation is into whether Baker ordered the hacking. So, on both sides of the issue, it is misleading to say that the IP ties Baker to the hacking, but it is also misleading , as dBrower implies, that the fact that it does not tie Baker to the hacking means that the link is not highly suspicious.

Correct me if I am wrong but the story goes something like this.

Documents were obtained by a criminal paid to hack into LNDD computers.
These documents were first made public from an IP adress usually used by Arnie Baker.

Argue all you want boys, but to me there is a good reason for Arnie Baker to sound as scared as he did when asked to answer questions.

Now if only we could have some drunken mice and statistical obfuscation and we can be right back in the swing of things.

[dbrower]

it is also misleading , as dBrower implies, that the fact that it does not tie Baker to the hacking means that the link is not highly suspicious.

Correct me if I am wrong but the story goes something like this.

Documents were obtained by a criminal paid to hack into LNDD computers.
These documents were first made public from an IP adress usually used by Arnie Baker.

I've never said the authorities should not pursue a possible connection between the two events; only that the connection was conjecture, and that the two events are not necessarily tied. And I've agreed it is suspicious and the Authorities should want to ask questions. The fact is they have not made formal requests, and all we can do is speculate why they have not.

Projecting into Baker's mind and motivation is also speculation, which is fine as long as it's identified as such. As I conjectured earlier, I don't know how many of the readers here would react on getting an email inviting you to fly to another country to face an interrogation. It not being a formal demand, most might very well laugh it off.

Comparing a file sharing case to this is laughable -- there clearly aren't the same kind of commercial interests involved. If you want a different one, try the Pentagon Papers, also involving purloined official paperwork and leaked to the press for editorial use.

And yes, it does make me feel better to restate that the documents showed, and that later the LNDD admitted that it had sent letters retracting AAFs to various federations, and had been asked by the WADA technical director Olivier Rabin to explain itself. I feel better restating that because it seems germane to the issues of the trustworthiness of the anti-doping system. There are a lot of people who seem to want to forget about that part, while making sure no one forgets other parts of the case.

-dB

[D-Queued]

...

And yes, it does make me feel better to restate that the documents showed, and that later the LNDD admitted that it had sent letters retracting AAFs to various federations, and had been asked by the WADA technical director Olivier Rabin to explain itself. I feel better restating that because it seems germane to the issues of the trustworthiness of the anti-doping system. There are a lot of people who seem to want to forget about that part, while making sure no one forgets other parts of the case.

-dB

Ends justifying your means?

BTW - do you really want to question my memory?

Dave.

[Ali]

OMG !

I just had another thought. Conspiracy theory or lateral thinking ? You decide.

The (now confirmed as genuine) "hacker documents" ? What was the point of that ? Documents which showed that LNDD recalled some dodgy results which showed what ? They made a mistakes ? Maybe. Certainly the use made by Baker et al was to indicate possible incompetence. For me, I always felt a little uncomfortable about the hacker docs. They presented LNDD in quite a flattering light. Yes, they had made an error but the necessary checks and balances were in place to capture that and they rectified the situation as soon as possible. If I'd have been Baker, it would have been me questioning their authenticity, not the head of the LNDD lab (although a nice bit of casual dishonesty by the head of the lab, there).

So what was the hacker really trying to tell us ? Baker's interpretation, my interpretation or perhaps another more sinister one which everybody missed ?

You need to go back to the origin of those documents. This is what we're being told: The labs did their tests; Everything was checked, double checked and then checked once more just for good luck; The results were reviewed by committee and stamped OK; The "Dear Doper" letter goes out ... then what ? This is where there's a massive disconnect. All of a sudden, the results are recalled. After this apparently bomb-proof process has been completed, someone at the lab pops up and casually says "Oops ! On second thoughts that was a negative. My mistake". Nah, I don't think so.

So this is where I'm going, before I get told off for being off topic ... the hacker was trying to reveal the presence of what has just now being discovered ... that results were being retracted in response to bribes received or extortion applied.

Man, this is so big ... it's huge, enormous ... mega-big !

[MacRoadie]

So this is where I'm going, before I get told off for being off topic ... the hacker was trying to reveal the presence of what has just now being discovered ... that results were being retracted in response to bribes received or extortion applied.

So let me see if I've got this straight. Rider A spends time, effort and money finding a lab and/or lab tech on the take. Instead of the tech simply manipulating the sample during the testing process (in any number of ways, the easiest of which is to simply contaminate it), the lab releases a positive result.

Rider A then bribes tech again (?), tech fesses up that he screwed up (placing both his job and his reputation as a qualified technician in jeopardy, not to mention his ability to assist Rider A again in the future), lab retracts said positive result and subsequently issues a negative result, and lab is now open to all manner of criticism and second-guessing and intensified scrutiny, all of which may force Rider A to find a new lab/tech and start the process all over again.

Am I close? This stuff is complicated.

[Ali]

So let me see if I've got this straight. Rider A spends time, effort and money finding a lab and/or lab tech on the take. Instead of the tech simply manipulating the sample during the testing process (in any number of ways, the easiest of which is to simply contaminate it), the lab releases a positive result.

Rider A then bribes tech again (?), tech fesses up that he screwed up (placing both his job and his reputation as a qualified technician in jeopardy, not to mention his ability to assist Rider A again in the future), lab retracts said positive result and subsequently issues a negative result, and lab is now open to all manner of criticism and second-guessing and intensified scrutiny, all of which may force Rider A to find a new lab/tech and start the process all over again.

Am I close? This stuff is complicated.

Close, but no cigar.

You complicated a very simple process. Two options:

1) A positive result is obtained (no history between rider and lab). The lab issues the "Dear Doper" letter. A proxy for the rider finds out who's corrupt in that lab and arranges a deal. How the deal is implemented in turning around a result is unknown, as is the level of corruption. If the top guy is in on it, then it would obviously be a trivial matter. Perhaps a top guy who is comfortable with casual dishonesty would be a good starting point.

2) The lab has a result to offer. Let's not confuse matters by considering whether that result is genuine or not. The offer goes out to the rider (perhaps this is the raison d'etre for the leaked result ?). If the rider takes the bait and intervenes, the result get's retracted. If not ... well, the rest is history.

I'm comfortable saying that this is by far and away the very best model out there for what happens in WADA-world. Corrupt, immoral bastards who routinely reck people's lives.

Just my opinion of course, but one which I fully believe in.

[Roadent]

Close, but no cigar.

You complicated a very simple process. Two options:

1) A positive result is obtained (no history between rider and lab). The lab issues the "Dear Doper" letter. A proxy for the rider finds out who's corrupt in that lab and arranges a deal. How the deal is implemented in turning around a result is unknown, as is the level of corruption. If the top guy is in on it, then it would obviously be a trivial matter. Perhaps a top guy who is comfortable with casual dishonesty would be a good starting point.

2) The lab has a result to offer. Let's not confuse matters by considering whether that result is genuine or not. The offer goes out to the rider (perhaps this is the raison d'etre for the leaked result ?). If the rider takes the bait and intervenes, the result get's retracted. If not ... well, the rest is history.

I'm comfortable saying that this is by far and away the very best model out there for what happens in WADA-world. Corrupt, immoral bastards who routinely reck people's lives.

Just my opinion of course, but one which I fully believe in.

Err, routinely reck dopers lives, don't you mean? I mean, you basically admit that you have no defense for the actual testing being flawed, given your reasoning above - yeah, Floyd may (and I say 'may' very tenuously) have been set up, still doesn't moot the fact that he was doping.

[Pelotonium]

OMG !

I just had another thought. Conspiracy theory or lateral thinking ? You decide.

I know this is gonna sound crazy but I don't think you're wrong, here. :-)

To be honest, this was my original feeling concerning WADA's business plan a few years ago. I thought the real goal of the ADAs was to make the training and doping consistent with the testing.

In other words, you go to to a governing body like the UCI and you tell 'em:
"You tell me what drugs and in what amounts you consider illegal. We'll make sure that the trainers and medical programs conform to the testing methods. Just have your athletes send us money to benchmark them, give us some cash to run the official tests, and we'll make sure you never lose face again. Promise."

Somewhere along the lines someone found it too steep a price, and the business plan kinda fell apart.

This post has been edited by Pelotonium: 16 August 2009 - 12:33 AM

[DPCandND]

I know this is gonna sound crazy but I don't think you're wrong, here. :-)

To be honest, this was my original feeling concerning WADA's business plan a few years ago. I thought the real goal of the ADAs was to make the training and doping consistent with the testing.

In other words, you go to to a governing body like the UCI and you tell 'em:
"You tell me what drugs and in what amounts you consider illegal. We'll make sure that the trainers and medical programs conform to the testing methods. Just have your athletes send us money to benchmark them, give us some cash to run the official tests, and we'll make sure you never lose face again. Promise."

Somewhere along the lines someone found it too steep a price, and the business plan kinda fell apart.

Perfect, Pelo...perfect. I am bumping this topic because I had an interesting thing happen to me this week. I was approached by Sal (my gal SAL, the better half here at the Ranch!) the other day and she informed me that a VP at her bank, in the San Diego corporate offices, was supposedly an "ex-pro" who now is using Arnie Baker as his coach. This weekend warrior wants to ride L'Etape du Tour in 2010, and has actually engaged the ex-Dr. Baker as his coach! I researched the 'braggard' (who will go unnamed because he is wagging his rooster at the office, trying to make a name for himself with the staff!) who is not much more than a DNF Masters class 45-50 wanna be, but it struck me...Why in God's name would ANY cyclist in need of coaching turn to Arnie Baker?...do cyclists out there not KNOW what an unethical rooster he is?
Is he not now totally disgraced? I mean, most of us knew he was the geekiest Freddiest kind of bike nerd out there, and even in San Diego he is viewed as kind of a joke. But are there really folks who think this ex-physician shaman dweeb is worth the cost of the print of his coaching? It scares me to think that this beautiful sport is still populated by geeky little tweaks like Baker, making $9.95 for each digital download of his "insightful" coaching.

The apocalypse is truly upon us. I think I will go for a bike ride now.

[Surftel]

Perfect, Pelo...perfect. I am bumping this topic because I had an interesting thing happen to me this week. I was approached by Sal (my gal SAL, the better half here at the Ranch!) the other day and she informed me that a VP at her bank, in the San Diego corporate offices, was supposedly an "ex-pro" who now is using Arnie Baker as his coach. This weekend warrior wants to ride L'Etape du Tour in 2010, and has actually engaged the ex-Dr. Baker as his coach! I researched the 'braggard' (who will go unnamed because he is wagging his rooster at the office, trying to make a name for himself with the staff!) who is not much more than a DNF Masters class 45-50 wanna be, but it struck me...Why in God's name would ANY cyclist in need of coaching turn to Arnie Baker?...do cyclists out there not KNOW what an unethical rooster he is?
Is he not now totally disgraced? I mean, most of us knew he was the geekiest Freddiest kind of bike nerd out there, and even in San Diego he is viewed as kind of a joke. But are there really folks who think this ex-physician shaman dweeb is worth the cost of the print of his coaching? It scares me to think that this beautiful sport is still populated by geeky little tweaks like Baker, making $9.95 for each digital download of his "insightful" coaching.

The apocalypse is truly upon us. I think I will go for a bike ride now.

Very true. Before the whole Landis thing happened most here thought he was a dork. Now it is just confirmed. Even if you could overlook the Landis stuff why would you want to hang out with Arnie?

Why does he need somebody to train him for the Etape? The training plan is pretty simple..... go out to Palomar and ride it as many times as you can.

[DPCandND]

Very true. Before the whole Landis thing happened most here thought he was a dork. Now it is just confirmed. Even if you could overlook the Landis stuff why would you want to hang out with Arnie?

Why does he need somebody to train him for the Etape? The training plan is pretty simple..... go out to Palomar and ride it as many times as you can.

Hey Surf, whassup?
In regard to your post...exactly! What could POSSIBLY drive a normal (or even near-normal) person to want to have anything to do with Arnie? I mean, even if one can't read, one can still figure out that it is Diet, Rest, and Training....geez Louise....

[Steve in ATL]

... a DNF Masters class 45-50 wanna be...

The technical term for this is "Fattie Master"

[Surftel]

Hey Surf, whassup?
In regard to your post...exactly! What could POSSIBLY drive a normal (or even near-normal) person to want to have anything to do with Arnie? I mean, even if one can't read, one can still figure out that it is Diet, Rest, and Training....geez Louise....

The Arnie training plan....ground your knees to dust, then drink milk.

[MacRoadie]

The Arnie training plan....ground your knees to dust, then drink milk.

You forgot "Get a real thick pair of dorky glasses."