[fab]

ali and St Thomas are fine, and the hacking was ordered by an american close of Landis, I can only see Greg Lemond acting like that.
That cannot be people like Will or Arnie Baker who were constantly measured in their words, never showed disrespect for their accussers, for the technicians, ...

Of course, there were never people who were targeted.

[D-Queued]

No, let's get into it ... I thought this was the crux of the matter !

You proudly announce that you initiated this, but try to avoid resolving it ? Typical, unfortunately.

I've yet to see anyone have the balls to say what these reports say without couching them in if's and but's terms. I know what they say. I can read French as easily as I read English. You guy's are skirting around the issue because that's what the reporter does. Despite all the noise, no one here has the confidence to make a categorical statement with regard to these reports.

You present yourself as the champion of this thread ? Grow some balls and tell us what's going down with regard to Dr Baker, without resorting to supposition ... facts, get it ?

I will do my best to not judge your French literacy based upon your English example.

Resolve this issue? Here? It would be a real turn of cheek for you to allow us to resolve these items here. Shouldn't this one see its day in court, if that is where it is headed?

Alternately, please feel free to post a poll on this subject. We can let the DPF crew pledge their resolve.

But, you see, in a topic like this, we can only discuss and debate it.

The purpose of posting the news item was merely to inform. Something that you and Tom appear to struggle greatly with. Informing, you see, is very different from the pre-meditated and structured misinformation campaigns that you might be more familiar with.

The type that would, for example, include the actions that Arnie is alleged to have conducted here.

Yes, I do get what you mean by facts. The kind of facts that Arnie, Will and Floyd were so happy to just make up. Actions for which Arnie now appears to now be in trouble for.

Don't worry, though, pathological lying seems to be a common trait with the sociopathic nature of this crew. Such traits appear to extend to their followers as well.

Grow some balls? Grow up.

Dave.

[Thomas A. Fine]

The purpose of posting the news item was merely to inform. Something that you and Tom appear to struggle greatly with. Informing, you see, is very different from the pre-meditated and structured misinformation campaigns that you might be more familiar with.

My purpose is also only to inform. I saw how one-sided the discussion was here and wanted to point out some facts that I thought people should be aware of.

Why hasn't the US media picked it up? Perhaps because Floyd is already a has-been and ate up more than his 15 minutes of fame. The question is, of course, pure red herring. It doesn't matter.

Why hasn't the French media picked it up? Lexpress.fr published the story ten days ago, and no one has touched it since. You can't tell me the French press would be bored with Landis' coach being involved into the hacking of LNDD. My guess is they won't touch it because there's nothing there. No red herring.

tom

[DLRay]

Why hasn't the French media picked it up? Lexpress.fr published the story ten days ago, and no one has touched it since. You can't tell me the French press would be bored with Landis' coach being involved into the hacking of LNDD. My guess is they won't touch it because there's nothing there. No red herring.

tom

JFC...three more stories were linked in this thread. Le Monde, Nouvel Obs, Mediapart. One more...
http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-politique...es/917/0/337339
Greenpeace is the big attraction. Landis is a side show.

[fab]

Landis' case is settled since a while for most French... and it had been reported that Landis' people were involved in LNDD hacking few time after the story had broken.

And today German press is reporting that Sinkewitz who was not able to stay in Landis' wheel despite a blood transfusion received the 2 july ! The same Sinkewitz who tested positive for the "unusefull" testosterone on 2007 TDF.
When we know the effects of a blood doping program on performance we can only see the truth.

Sure we are still reading between lines but good scientist are first good observers.

[frenchfry]

No doubt in your mind here then

...er, well maybe some ?

... yes, but it doesn't mean that he was, either ?

Yes, I really get that impression ... that was a very forceful defense. Well done.

Nobody said all the details are clear on this, and I am not presumptuous to assume to know everything like you and Tom notr do I have predetermined conclusions as you.

What isn't confirmed is the relationship of Dominguez as middleman between Baker/Landis and Quiros. Dominquez appears to be denying everything (something you should be familiar with your defence of a serial liar).

The investigation is still ongoing and thanks to the EDF side of things we are likely to know more as it advances. Of course your strident denials of all facts will continue...

[D-Queued]

...
Mod note: removed ad hominem/personal attack. RH

Who said I was smart? Besides you in an earlier post? When have I ever claimed any intelligence?

In fact, most of this stuff looks pretty stupid to me. And, it is all I can do here to try and keep up with all of this stupidity.

The incredible grandiosity was incredibly stupid. How many other cyclists or athletes of any kind adopted the stupid protecting athlete's rights BS?

What they did was stupid. The lying and stupid excuses started immediately, and that was stupid. The defense was stupid. The PR campaign was stupid. The threats were stupid. And, of course, the campaign here on DPF was stupid.

Unfortunately, there were some major casualties and victims along the way. People who had nothing to do with this, but suffered enormously -- directly because of it. But we aren't allowed to talk about family here. Anyhow, that was really stupid.

And, the lack of remorse. Stupid.

Now we find out, surprise, that there is solid evidence that the attempted hack of LNDD was, in fact, related to Floyd. Stupid again.

If we have been smart enough to learn anything, then this story must really have struck a nerve to bring both you and Tom out with the latest round of the BS campaign. And that is such an obvious ploy, that it is stupid.

But, I don't have to be very smart to see that you are taking us all to be so stupid as to believe you.

And, since I was not smart enough to remember this old ad campaign slogan while composing the original post, I have to edit to add:

Why do you think they call it dope, stupid?

Dave.

This post has been edited by rational head: 26 April 2009 - 03:06 PM

[Thomas A. Fine]

JFC...three more stories were linked in this thread. Le Monde, Nouvel Obs, Mediapart. One more...
http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-politique...es/917/0/337339
Greenpeace is the big attraction. Landis is a side show.

Let me be as clear as I can be. The Arnie Baker - Norman Crepin connection is mentioned in only one single article I can find online, and no one is touching it. This is the only article I can find that mentions his name at all in connection with the hacking, even disregarding this alleged Crepin connection.

It's true that Greenpeace is the bigger story that's obvious.

It's true that Landis has been reported in connection with this case for a long long time. But no real connection has ever been established, it's all just been speculation and it all continues to be speculation.

If you follow this case, each new development takes us further away from Landis. Was the hacker someone associated with Floyd? No it was Alain Quiros. Was he ordered by someone associated with Floyd? No, it was his boss, at Kargus Consultants, Lorho. Was Lorho hired by someone associated with Floyd? No, he was hired by Francois Dominguez, a private detective with some kind of ties to the French Secret Service. Was Dominguez hired by someone associated with Floyd? We don't know yet, because so far Dominguez refuses to say, but in this latest bit you've provided above (thank you) he does now say that it was a friend.

tom

[rational head]

Please stay respectful. I removed a couple of ad hominems.

Any poster with a history of multiple rule violations may risk modification to his posting privileges from this point on. Thank you.

[fab]

Let me be as clear as I can be. The Arnie Baker - Norman Crepin connection is mentioned in only one single article I can find online, and no one is touching it. This is the only article I can find that mentions his name at all in connection with the hacking, even disregarding this alleged Crepin connection.

It's true that Greenpeace is the bigger story that's obvious.

It's true that Landis has been reported in connection with this case for a long long time. But no real connection has ever been established, it's all just been speculation and it all continues to be speculation.

If you follow this case, each new development takes us further away from Landis. Was the hacker someone associated with Floyd? No it was Alain Quiros. Was he ordered by someone associated with Floyd? No, it was his boss, at Kargus Consultants, Lorho. Was Lorho hired by someone associated with Floyd? No, he was hired by Francois Dominguez, a private detective with some kind of ties to the French Secret Service. Was Dominguez hired by someone associated with Floyd? We don't know yet, because so far Dominguez refuses to say, but in this latest bit you've provided above (thank you) he does now say that it was a friend.

tom

Don't say we are further now. Few time after the first report about that hacking it was stated that the hacker was close to Landis. I don't remember if Baker name was quoted. So we are at the same point or a bit closer with Baker quoted.

I was a bit surprised that the hacker has been so rapidly identified but more by the link with Landis' people. Now we can think that Baker or someone else has ordered tha hacking by mail. Probably that person was thinking that by using an anonymous email adress it was enough to protect his own identity. Of course, it's not sufficient. Police has probably found the real IP address of the sender.

But to have the IP sender or even the computer used don't say who was the real user sender. If that IP is Baker home adress or one of the wifi IP adress used by Baker, that is still not sure that was Baker who send the email. That could be someone living or not in that house...
Maybe that was someone who used is WIFI connection or Baker's computer to ordered the LNDD hacking (or eventually check the email box)!

Some evil spirit would think that all of this could have happened during a meeting of Landis' defense with Will and some rocket computer scientist.

Of course, the other involved french people refuses to speak because what they have done is illegal. Their defense is to say that they were acting in a normal attack to test the intrusive resistance of LNND computer networks.

In all of that difficult to not see who were interrested by a such hacking !

[vaunTrevi]

Let me be as clear as I can be. The Arnie Baker - Norman Crepin connection is mentioned in only one single article I can find online, and no one is touching it. This is the only article I can find that mentions his name at all in connection with the hacking, even disregarding this alleged Crepin connection.

It's true that Greenpeace is the bigger story that's obvious.

It's true that Landis has been reported in connection with this case for a long long time. But no real connection has ever been established, it's all just been speculation and it all continues to be speculation.

If you follow this case, each new development takes us further away from Landis. Was the hacker someone associated with Floyd? No it was Alain Quiros. Was he ordered by someone associated with Floyd? No, it was his boss, at Kargus Consultants, Lorho. Was Lorho hired by someone associated with Floyd? No, he was hired by Francois Dominguez, a private detective with some kind of ties to the French Secret Service. Was Dominguez hired by someone associated with Floyd? We don't know yet, because so far Dominguez refuses to say, but in this latest bit you've provided above (thank you) he does now say that it was a friend.

tom

I got to say I'm quite amazed that this thread has gone on for so long. I went out of my way to post a descent google transation of the original article.

If anyone took the time to read it, and understand what it does say and Does not. And then were to read the posts that followed including the: mountain of suppositions, exagerations, suspicisions, declarations, opinions and and pure creative effort to make something out of something as ethereal as wisps of smoke in other words nothing... Its down right amazing.

Every so often I say something about driving public opinion by printing or forwarding rumors so the mystery mills of the public turn into fantastic machines of creation to try and make some sense of it... well there ya go ... there, this, is a perfect example.

I've also commented in the past about the mental attitude that leads to an interesting phenomena concerning men where they seem to lose all sense of reality once sucked in by this type of machine leading them to leave logic and common sense behind creating a mist of new reality that they begin to believe to be as real and solid as stone walls or the air they breathe. They soon go banging on doors to haul out the crowds call on the magistrates to burn the witches and the broom they rode in on or start making nooses and looking for trees.

There is this really good lecture by Sig Ziegler (hope thats right) where he talks about "who's kicking your dog?"

Is it really you that kicked the dog you loved when you got home in the evening from work, or is it your pent up frustration and anger after all the thoughtless thing that were done to you that day... that are making you kick him. Iyou can find it, its worth a listen.

Any how time to do a reality check around here mates... no monsters under my bed last night and the night before. Quit getting sucked in by this stuff dudes, relax, get out for a ride, enjoy the sun, Go out and get your wife some roses and play catch with your kid. Quit letting this stuff yank your chain or make you kick your dog.
Getting upset about this kind of baseless crappoli just isn't worth it. You know its like Frank Zappa said in one of his songs, "It isn't this way everywhere."

Cheers,

Vaughn

At any rate, relax have fun and keep it civil.

[frenchfry]

If anyone took the time to read it, and understand what it does say and Does not. And then were to read the posts that followed including the: mountain of suppositions, exagerations, suspicisions, declarations, opinions and and pure creative effort to make something out of something as ethereal as wisps of smoke in other words nothing... Its down right amazing.

You are right Vaughn, Landis is a clean as the driven snow, all the rest is just supposition, exageration, opinion, and pure creation of a bunch of bored hacks that hate cycling.

[fab]

Probably the english speakers have some difficulties with the french narration present tense confusing them.

See the last part of http://www.laits.utexas.edu/tex/gr/tapr1.html
"In addition, the present tense is sometimes used in place of the past or future in informal narration: "

Reste à identifier la personne qui lui a fourni des informations en pénétrant dans les serveurs du laboratoire. Les enquêteurs finissent par aboutir à Alain Quiros, ex-employé d'une société de sécurité à Paris. Ce surdoué de l'informatique, rémunéré des broutilles pour cette mission - 2 000 euros - s'est installé au Maroc quelque temps après son piratage. Entendu en juillet 2008 par la police marocaine sur commission rogatoire du juge français Thomas Cassuto, il reconnaît les faits. Mais l'histoire ne s'arrête pas là...

Remains to identify the person who supplied him with information servers entering the laboratory. Investigators eventually lead to Alain Quiros, former employee of a security company in Paris. This gifted computer science, paid peanuts for this mission - 2 000 - was installed in Morocco some time after its piracy. Heard in July 2008 by the Moroccan police on Letter of french judge Thomas Cassuto, he admitted the facts. But the story does not end there ...

I would have translated by

Remained to identify the person who had supplied him ... (or maybe who has supplied, english tense are still confusing for me )


In that article the only part which were a bit of hope for people who like to play with the least probable possibility is :

"Si le volet "Landis" de l'instruction ne progresse guère (à ce jour, le mystère reste entier sur le rôle éventuel joué par Lorho et le coach du coureur)"
translated by Google as
If the "Landis" the investigation is progressing much (so far, the mystery remains about the possible role played by Lorho coach and rider),

Since the "Landis" investigation is not progressing (so far, the mystery remains about the possible role played by Lorho with rider coach ),

But in the current context, with what was written earlier, that very probbably means :what was the role of Lorho , how has he operated, and so... in that operation linked to Landis coach (of course Baker)

Difficult to believe that he did a description in the first part and then he would have shifted to hypotesis. A perfect non-sense.

This post has been edited by fab: 27 April 2009 - 09:46 AM

[Thomas A. Fine]

Thanks fab, that's very helpful.

Let me take a stab at a cleaner translation (and to some degree paraphrasing, where French phrasing just doesn't work so well) of part of it then.

July 2006. Shortly after his victory in the Tour de France, American cyclist Floyd Landis is declared positive for testosterone by the National Laboratory for doping of Chatenay-Malabry, which is supervised by AFLD. However, on October 23, lightning strikes this same laboratory. The head of the laboratory, Francoise Lasne, learns from his counterpart Canadian Christiane Ayotte that a mysterious Norman Crepin, from whom they received email, questioned the reliability of the analyses carried out on Landis. [1] This well-informed man even had confidential documents from the French laboratory!

After learning of the problem, Pierre Bordry, head of the AFLD, filed a complaint in November 2006. The police discovered that the pseudonym Mr. Crepin was a cover for Arnie Baker, none other than the coach of Landis! By publishing the data from the French laboratory, Baker hoped, it seems, to clear his cyclist.

EDF denies involvement in hacking

It still remained to identify the person who broke into the laboratories' servers and provided him [Baker] with the information. The investigators found their way to Alain Quiros, a former employee of a security company in Paris. This gifted programmer, who was paid little for this mission - 2,000 euros - moved to Morocco some time after his break-in. Interrogated in July 2008 by the Moroccan police force at the request of French judge Thomas Cassuto, he admits the facts [2]. But the story does not stop there...

Some time later, the hacker is again caught. While examining his computer in their forensics lab, investigators of the Central Office of Computer Crime discover that he also hacked the servers of Greenpeace. Questioned about his silent partner, Quiros fingers Theirry Lorho, owner of Kargus Consultants, a French firm specializing in accounting forensics.

If the "Landis" case has hardly progressed (to date, any possible role played by[3] Lorho and the cyclists's coach remains a complete mystery), the situation is quite different in the "Greenpeace" case. It should be said that Lorho himself dropped a bombshell while testifying for the judge, on February 19: "Alain Quiros and I worked on the investigation of Greenpeace to track what they were up to. I did it for EDF, at the request of Pierre-Paul Francois, who is in charge of the nuclear energy sector". Lorho admits to requesting Quiros to break into the computer of Yannick Jadot, former campain-manager of Greenpeace. "Our interventions made it possible for EDF to avoid in 2005-2006 major actions [protests?] at their installations and in particular EPR [note: third generation nuclear reactor]", he told the judge.

[1] I believe this is not correct. I don't think the hacker documents ever specifically referred to Landis.
[2] But which facts? Perhaps this should simply be translated as "he confesses."
[3] As fab points out, this has ambiguous meaning - is it "by Lorho or the coach", or "between Lorho and the coach"? The intended question may have been whether Lorho was involved in the LNDD case, or only the Greenpeace case.

But there's one thing that's very clear now. This allegation regarding Baker is being reported as a historic one - something that based on this narrative must have been discovered by police between November 2006 and July 2008, and the narrative makes it sound like closer to the 2006 end of that range.

How is it possible that the French police connected Baker to Crepin back when this case was still big news, and no one reported it then? How could this not come up in the hearing or the appeal?

IMHO the answer is that it could not happen, and that this reporter quickly reviewed the history when writing this story, and made a mistake in reporting that the police had ever made such a connection. Perhaps he misread some speculation as fact.

tom

This post has been edited by Thomas A. Fine: 27 April 2009 - 03:48 PM

[Thomas A. Fine]

We don't know yet, because so far Dominguez refuses to say, but in this latest bit you've provided above (thank you) he does now say that it was a friend.

I got this part wrong. The quote "He's a friend" should have been attributed to Lorho, not to Dominguez. Lorho claims in that article, that Lorho introduced Quirros to Dominguez for the LNDD hacking, and was not directly involved. Lorho was saying of Dominguez "He's a friend".

So yes Lorho was slightly involved in the LNDD hacking, but Dominguez apparently still remains silent on the topic of who hired him.

tom

[fab]

Let me take a stab at a cleaner translation (and to some degree paraphrasing, where French phrasing just doesn't work so well) of part of it then.
[1] I believe this is not correct. I don't think the hacker documents ever specifically referred to Landis.

Of course, but what he means is that the object was favored the issue of Landis case.

[2] But which facts? Perhaps this should simply be translated as "he confesses."

Not only. The narrator is "insisting" on "what he wrote previouly is confirmed true"

[3] As fab points out, this has ambiguous meaning - is it "by Lorho or the coach", or "between Lorho and the coach"? The intended question may have been whether Lorho was involved in the LNDD case, or only the Greenpeace case.

But there's one thing that's very clear now. This allegation regarding Baker is being reported as a historic one - something that based on this narrative must have been discovered by police between November 2006 and July 2008, and the narrative makes it sound like closer to the 2006 end of that range.

How is it possible that the French police connected Baker to Crepin back when this case was still big news, and no one reported it then? How could this not come up in the hearing or the appeal?

IMHO the answer is that it could not happen, and that this reporter quickly reviewed the history when writing this story, and made a mistake in reporting that the police had ever made such a connection. Perhaps he misread some speculation as fact.

In my honest opinion, that is very simple, if a police investigations is not finished so any hearing cannot use its result.

Besides, there is probably some problems with territorial competence and bureaucraty between at least 3 different countries: USA, Canada and France...

In all articles there is never such alleged speculation, they are all referring to alleged facts reported by police. You can only speculate about the results of the police : are they correct or not?
You can speculate too on the name of the sender because of an identified IP or computer does not mean that his owner is the real sender. Probably one reason why investigations are not yet terminated.

This post has been edited by fab: 27 April 2009 - 04:31 PM