[rational head]

For anyone who is following this thread (without commenting on the specifics, even though I could because I do speak fluent French) I just want to point out a couple of curious facts.

Both Ali and Tom A Fine were active participants (pay attention, I did not use the quotation marks) in the Floyd Landis discussions on this forum. Just like me and many others...

NEVER, I repeat, NEVER did they claim or hint they speak or understand French. Not once. There were numerous opportunities to claim so, as both Ali and Tom, posted incessantly in the topics discussing the testimony of LNDD technicians (given in French).

Moreover. get this… both Ali and Tom suddenly appeared from nowhere arguing intricacies of French language with two posters who live in France (I confirm it via other means available to me) and who use French language every day.

Even more shocking, Ali and Tom, are comfortable at uttering categorical statements like these:

It absolutely[the French text -RH] does NOT say this in the article.

Or a "Scottish" Ali who does not speak French says to Fab - a French born in France

In other words, you're reading things which weren't actually said ... get it, fab

How far is this charade going to go?

[D-Queued]

Why am I not surprised at obfuscating Tom coming out of the shadows?

Ali and Tom = Smoke and Mirrors.

These are trolls.

Same tactics as before... obfuscate, misdirect and bury.

Dave.

[N.B.O.L.]

???
You start by saying that the translation/interpretation may be garbage and then proceed to draw conclusions based on that translation. Your call, I guess. Not the path I would choose to follow, though. Incidentally, we're only talking about translating French, for goodness sake. It's not exactly rocket science.

Boy if you think I said the translation may be garbage, then you need an English Translator as well. You were so busy jumping on me, you missed a major point that I think you would latch on to. It doesn't matter how the documents came to be made public, no one in authority has ever claimed that they were not authentic.

You are right, translating French might not be rocket science, but if one happens to be a rocket scientist that doesn't speak French, then it becomes much more difficult than rocket science.

This post has been edited by N.B.O.L.: 25 April 2009 - 01:15 AM

[Thomas A. Fine]

How far is this charade going to go?

I never claimed to speak french. I did in fact take french in school (and spanish and russian).

I claimed to interpolate using two online translators. I also did look at the french and know some
of the words and I have a brain.

French fry said

The spy/hacker admitted to his relationship with Baker

.

I stand by saying that this is absolutely not in the article. You don't have to speak fluent french to look at the online translations, and to look at all the sentence construction in original french, to see that it simply isn't there.

Anyone who is interested in the truth can easily look at these online translations and at the french text and see that there is simply no combination of words that could be construed to mean this.

Frenchfry's summary is wrong in this regard. If there is anyone out there that wants to contest the facts, proceed. Otherwise continue simply smearing my reputation and questioning my motives, as this is the standard fallback when those messy (and ridiculously verifiable) facts get in the way.

tom

[Thomas A. Fine]

Arnie Baker is the one who leaked the documents. (One for the Floyd bashers)
Arnie Baker may have asked for & paid for the hacking. (If confirmed one for the Floyd bashers)
Neither AFLD or the article make any claim that the documents themselves were not authentic. (One for the Floyd Supporters)

Is there anything else that I have missed?

This is actually more accurate than Frenchfry's summary, as it doesn't claim an admission of relationship that isn't actually mentioned.

On point one, what you missed is inconsistencies in the article. Yes it does say that Arnie Baker is the fictitious Norman Crepin. But, it says this in the section that reviews past facts. It introduces this new "fact" as if it were an old and well-known fact, and offers no information (other than by the police) on how this fact came to light. And later, it says that Baker's role remains a mystery, which contradicts this earlier fact. This is why I think the reporter misread and misreported old case history.

On point two, I think this is a reasonable assumption if you accept point one, although not the only possibility. The article in question only seems to imply this.

On point three, this is old news. From the start, they said the information was taken out of context, but never denied that it was authentic.

tom

[vaunTrevi]

Greenpeace: revelations of the espionage case
By Gilles Gaetner published on 15/04/2009 17:02 - updated 15/04/2009 17:24

The espionage case of Greenpeace, which splashes a EDF started in a laboratory ... fight against doping. Revelations on pirate high-tech.
What is common between the French Agency for the fight against doping (AFLD) and Greenpeace? A priori, nothing. Except that both were victims of software piracy on the part of a company, Kargus Consultant, headed by a former member of the secret service (DGSE), Thierry Lorho. The Express reveals the underside of this "barbouzerie" high-tech, which has nothing to do with spinning and tapping of the past ...

July 2006. Shortly after his victory in the Tour de France, American cyclist Floyd Landis is declared positive for testosterone by the National Laboratory screening of doping Châtenay-Malabry (Hauts-de-Seine), which provides guardianship AFLD. However, on 23 October, a thunderbolt hit the same laboratory: his responsible, Françoise Lasne, taught by his Canadian counterpart Christiane Ayotte a mysterious Norman Crepin, which she received an e-mail, calls into question the reliability tests on Landis. This man even informed of confidential documents from the laboratory french!

Sensing a destabilizing, Pierre Bordry, head of the AFLD, complained in November 2006. PJ discovers that under the identity of the enterprising Mr. Crepin, hiding in a certain Arnie Baker, which is ... that the coach Landis! In presenting its own data from laboratory french, Baker hoped, it seems, exonerate his rider.

EDF denies being involved in piracy

Remains to identify the person who supplied him with information servers entering the laboratory. Investigators eventually lead to Alain Quiros, former employee of a security company in Paris. This gifted computer science, paid peanuts for this mission - 2 000 - was installed in Morocco some time after its piracy. Heard in July 2008 by the Moroccan police on Letter of french judge Thomas Cassuto, he admitted the facts. But the story does not end there ...

Some time later, the hacker is caught again. In examining his computer in the laboratory, investigators from the Central Office against crime linked to information technology has also discovered that pirated servers in the Greenpeace environmental association. Asked about his sponsor, designer Thierry Lorho Quiros, head of Kargus Consultant, a pharmacy that specializes in French economic intelligence.

If the "Landis" the investigation is progressing much (so far, the mystery remains about the possible role played by Lorho coach and rider), the same can of the "Greenpeace". It must be said that Lorho itself dropped ballast saying to the judge, February 19: "Alain Quiros and I worked on the operating mode of Greenpeace for its actions. I did it for EDF, on behalf Pierre-François Paul, head of the nuclear energy sector. " Lorho admits to having asked Quiros to hack the computer Yannick Jadot, former campaign manager of Greenpeace. "Our intervention has enabled EDF to avoid in the years 2005-2006 large shares of its facilities including EPR [Editor's note: the nuclear reactor third generation]," he assured the judge.

Today, the Directorate General of EDF denies spy Jadot and Greenpeace. To prove his good faith, it has suspended Pierre François-Paul (ex-police officer in the Brigade for the suppression of banditry) and No. 1 in the safety of the group, against Admiral Pascal Durieux. The question remains whether this will be sufficient to avoid a summons from the judge Cassuto, the court of Nanterre.Google transation - but not bad.

[Thomas A. Fine]

And here's the babelfish.yahoo.com translation. I've highlighted some differences.

Greenpeace: revelations on the business of espionage
By Gilles Gaetner, published the 15/04/2009 17:02 - updated the 15/04/2009 17:24

The business of espionage of Greenpeace which splashes EDF began in a laboratory from… fight against doping. Revelations on pirates high-tech.

What are there of commun run between the French Agency of fight against doping (AFLD) and Greenpeace? A priori, nothing. Except that both were victims of an hacking on behalf of a company, Kargus Consulting, directed by a former member of secret services (DGSE), Thierry Lorho. The Express train reveals the lower parts of this “barbouzery” high-tech, which does not have anything any more to see with the spinning mills and listenings of formerly…

July 2006. Shortly after its victory in the Tour de France, the American cyclist Floyd Landis is declared positive with testosterone by the National laboratory of tracking of the doping of Châtenay-Malabry (Hauts-de-Seine), whose AFLD ensures the supervision. However, on October 23, a clap of thunder falls down on this same laboratory: its person in charge, Francoise Lasne, learn by his counterpart Canadian Christiane Ayotte that mysterious Norman Crepin, of which it received email, blames the reliability of the analyses carried out on Landis. This quite informed man has even confidential documents coming from the French laboratory!
Having a presentiment of a company of destabilization, Pierre Bordry, owner of the AFLD, carries felt sorry for in November 2006. The PJ discovers whereas, under the identity of undertaking Mr. Crepin, in fact certain Arnie Baker hides, which is different… only the coach of Landis! By presenting to its manner the data resulting from the French laboratory, Baker hoped, seems it, to clear its runner.

EDF denies to be concerned by the hacking

Remain to identify the person who provided him information while penetrating in the waiters of the laboratory. The investigators end up leading to Alain Quiros, ex-employee of a company of safety in Paris. This exceptionally gifted of data processing, remunerated trifles for this mission - 2.000 euros - settled in Morocco some time after its hacking. Heard in July 2008 by the Moroccan police force on letter of request of French judge Thomas Cassuto, he recognizes the facts. But the history does not stop there…
Some time afterwards, the hacker is again wedged. By examining its computer in the business of the laboratory, the investigators of the Central office of fight against criminality related to information technologies discover that it also pirated the waiters of association Greenpeace ecologist. Questioned on its silent partner, Quiros designates Thierry Lorho, owner of Kargus Consultant, a French dispensary specialized in the economic intelligence.

If the shutter “Landis” of the instruction hardly progresses (to date, the mystery remains whole on the possible part played by Lorho and the coach of the runner), the situation is quite different of the shutter “Greenpeace”. It should be said that Lorho itself released ballast while declaring with the judge, on February 19: “Alain Quiros and me worked on the procedure of Greenpeace to know its actions. I did it for EDF, the account of Pierre-Paul Francois, person in charge of the nuclear energy pole.” Lorho admits to have required of Quiros to pirate the computer of Yannick Jadot, ex-director of countryside of Greenpeace. “Our intervention made it possible at EDF to avoid in years 2005-2006 of the large actions on its installations and in particular EPR [note: the nuclear reactor of third generation]”, it ensured the judge.

Today, the head office of EDF denies to have made espionner Jadot and Greenpeace. To prove its bona fide, it suspended Pierre-Paul François (ex-police officer with the Repression brigade of the banditism) and the n° 1 of the safety of the group, the rear-admiral Pascal Durieux. It remains to be seen if it will be sufficient to avoid a convocation in Cassuto judge, with the court of Nanterre.

[rational head]

I never claimed to speak french.

And where did I claim that you claimed to speak French? I wish you read what was written :

NEVER, I repeat, NEVER did they claim or hint they speak or understand French.

Hence, while you're entitled to your opinions, they carry no more weight than your (software engineer) "scientific" critique of testosterone metabolites in Floyd's IRMS tests or your theories of drunken mice somehow explaining Floyd's sky-high and inconsistent testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio.

[frenchfry]

There is absolutely nothing in the article that states or implies that the hacker admitted any relationship with Baker. FF seems to have made the exact same kind of error in quick-reading that the I believe the reporter made in misreading case history.

Reste à identifier la personne qui lui a fourni des informations en pénétrant dans les serveurs du laboratoire. Les enquêteurs finissent par aboutir à Alain Quiros, ex-employé d'une société de sécurité à Paris. Ce surdoué de l'informatique, rémunéré des broutilles pour cette mission - 2 000 euros - s'est installé au Maroc quelque temps après son piratage. Entendu en juillet 2008 par la police marocaine sur commission rogatoire du juge français Thomas Cassuto, il reconnaît les faits.

"Heard in July 2008 by the Moroccan police force on letter of request of French judge Thomas Cassuto, he recognizes the facts." (taken from the babelfish translation you posted)

Implicit in this statement is that he admited to hacking the LNDD computers for Arnie Baker aka "Norman Crepin". My resume of the article was succinct but accurate. You have hignlighted in a post the fact that certain aspects of the investigation aren't clear, but this is only with regards to the relationship between Alain Quiros and Kargus Consultant (who had hired Quiros to spy on EDF) which is totally irrelevant to the Landis case where it appears that Quiros was working alone.

All the facts are not outlined in this article, but it leaves no doubt as to Baker's implication in this sordid affair. You could say he is guilty of everything he accused LNDD of - conspiracy, lies, coverup, manipulation of information. The difference is that Landis, Baker et al could never even come close to proving their allegations while their own offences are clearly proven.

You can BS all you want, but Baker, Landis and their band are pathetic manipulators and liars.

This post has been edited by frenchfry: 25 April 2009 - 10:07 AM

[Ali]

... Or a "Scottish" Ali who does not speak French ...

It has to be said that the Scottish are pretty much incapable of learning any language other than English (and if we're honest, they struggle with that). Even one of our most gifted linguists, a highly respected actor, would perhaps not withstand close scrutiny when it comes to correct pronunciation. Having said that, "back home", his mastery of the language is considered sublime by his many fans. His performances regularly extract passionate exclamations of "hoots mon" as they hang on his every syllable. Yes, of course, I'm talking about Scotty "Cap'n she cannae tak any mare" from the starship Enterprise.

I think that if you check my previous posts, you'll find many examples of me casually throwing in the odd French expression ... for example, I'm pretty sure that I've used "Oui" and "Bon" on a number of occaisions. I may even have used "Bien Sur" in a particulary devil-may-care moment.

So there !
I think my French credentials speak for themselves. I guess I'll just have to take your word for your linguistic abilities.

Aujourdoui

[D-Queued]

...It's just such a surprising allegation to say that Baker is Crepin..

...
As for the statement that Crepin was Baker, I think this was wrongly reported for the reasons stated previously.
...

...
On point one, what you missed is inconsistencies in the article. Yes it does say that Arnie Baker is the fictitious Norman Crepin. ...

Surprise? Not.

Wrongly reported? Not.

Inconsistencies? Not.

Classic TAF: Obfuscate, misdirect and attempt to hide through burial by posting nonsensical argument.

We didn't miss the inconsistencies in this uncontested report. Nor did we miss the inconsistencies with respect to the entire Floyd campaign and the precedence of many fraudulent acts. Nor did we miss the consistency with your 'role' through the Floyd campaign.

But it is no surprise that you did.

Who asked you to come out of hiding?

Dave.

[Thomas A. Fine]

"Heard in July 2008 by the Moroccan police force on letter of request of French judge Thomas Cassuto, he recognizes the facts." (taken from the babelfish translation you posted)

Implicit in this statement is that he admited to hacking the LNDD computers for Arnie Baker aka "Norman Crepin".

That's really reading between the lines, and not translating. I read it only as Quiros admitting to be the hacker. Perhaps that's because that every other article I've read on this subject indicates only that he confessed to being the hacker, and no other article discusses who hired him for this case (while a retired police officer is repeatedly mentioned as hiring him for the GreenPeace hacking), and no other article discusses
the identity of Norman Crepin.

And why is it that no one else has picked up this story?

Because there's no story. The article was a mistake.

tom

[frenchfry]

That's really reading between the lines, and not translating. I read it only as Quiros admitting to be the hacker. Perhaps that's because that every other article I've read on this subject indicates only that he confessed to being the hacker, and no other article discusses who hired him for this case (while a retired police officer is repeatedly mentioned as hiring him for the GreenPeace hacking), and no other article discusses
the identity of Norman Crepin.

And why is it that no one else has picked up this story?

Because there's no story. The article was a mistake.

tom

La quatrième personne mise en examen serait, elle, à l'origine de l'intrusion dans le laboratoire LNDD mais aussi chez un avocat, Frédérik-Karel Canoy, conseil de petits porteurs dans plusieurs grosses sociétés (Vivendi, Société générale...). Selon nos informations, il s'agirait de François Dominguez, un agent de recherche privée, établi à Bayonne, qui connaît bien Kargus Consultants.

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2009...79087_3224.html

Pour ce qui est de l'espionnage du laboratoire anti-dopage, la piste "conduit au coureur cycliste américain Floyd Landis"

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualites/...amp;xtor=RSS-27

Dès novembre 2006, L'Equipe assurait qu'un proche de Floyd Landis était impliqué dans la diffusion des faux courriers. Les déclarations de MM. Lorho et Quiros accréditent aujourd'hui la thèse de l'implication de l'entourage du cycliste américain dans le piratage informatique du laboratoire anti-dopage. Une implication que M. Dominguez se refuse à confirmer. Lors de la confrontation du 7 avril, il a laissé entendre que lui-même n'avait fait qu'obéir à un mystérieux commanditaire, dont il n'a pas livré l'identité, qui lui aurait remis « une enveloppe kraft » qu'il n'aurait fait que transmettre à l'informaticien via le patron de Kargus.

http://www.linuxquimper.org/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=8378

I won't bother translating since you don't think I am capable.

It looks like Baker went through a private detective, but even if he didn't go directly through Quiros doesn't mean he wasn't directly involved. All of these articles are quite clear that Landis/Baker were the ones who ordered the hacking.

After all, Quiros was hired to hack the LNDD computers, then Baker is distributing material obtained from those very same computers under a fake name. Coincidence? Not very likely.

In any case this would be totally consistent with Landis, Baker, Will and the rest of their band. Totally sleazy.

This post has been edited by frenchfry: 25 April 2009 - 04:47 PM

[fab]

One more about Arnie Baker and Landis linked to hacking of LNDD from http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/170...vendi-et-landis

L'affaire de piratage informatique n'éclaboussera pas qu'EDF. Outre Greenpeace, l'officine Kargus Consultants et l'informaticien Alian Quiros ont aussi espionné l'ancien avocat des petits porteurs, Me Frédérik-Karel Canoy, et le Laboratoire national de dépistage du dopage (LNDD). Or, d'après le dossier judiciaire, dont Mediapart a pu prendre connaissance, les enquêteurs disposent de pistes sérieuses. La première conduit à l'affaire Vivendi; la seconde mène à Floyd Landis, en guerre avec les acteurs français de la lutte antidopage depuis qu'il a été déchu de son titre de vainqueur du Tour de France 2006.

This post has been edited by fab: 25 April 2009 - 05:11 PM

[Ali]

It looks like Baker went through a private detective...

No doubt in your mind here then

... but even if he didn't go directly through Quiros ...

...er, well maybe some ?

... doesn't mean he wasn't directly involved.

... yes, but it doesn't mean that he was, either ?

All of these articles are quite clear that Landis/Baker were the ones who ordered the hacking.

Yes, I really get that impression ... that was a very forceful defense. Well done.

[Thomas A. Fine]

I won't bother translating since you don't think I am capable.

It looks like Baker went through a private detective, but even if he didn't go directly through Quiros doesn't mean he wasn't directly involved. All of these articles are quite clear that Landis/Baker were the ones who ordered the hacking.

After all, Quiros was hired to hack the LNDD computers, then Baker is distributing material obtained from those very same computers under a fake name. Coincidence? Not very likely.

I actually wish you would translate instead of summarizing. It's actually incredibly interesting.

None of these other articles mentions Baker at all. Only implications of a relationship with Floyd are mentioned. Dominguez (the one who hired Lorho and Quiros to break into LNDD) wouldn't say who hired him for this. Most unusually he seems to claim that he didn't realize it was a criminal offense until he read about it months later in L'Equipe. This is bizarre, unless of course his mysterious silent partner was someone with apparent association with the LNDD, and therefore Dominguez believed he was conducting an internal investigation and not a criminal act.

As for Baker distributing the material, that's the part I'm disputing, and there's still no evidence of it anywhere besides that one confused article. You can't just assume it to be true in order to prove me wrong. Circular logic.

tom

[D-Queued]

.... You can't just assume it to be true in order to prove me wrong. Circular logic.

tom

You assume Landis is not guilty.

Pretzel logic.

Dave.

[Ali]

Let's just put this nonsense away. Frenchfry has been championing this story but clearly doesn't have the facts to hand to back up his assertions, despite his many references to French language reports which I have no hope of ever understanding (because I'm Scottish, according to RH).

Put up or shut up. No more mincing about with if's and but's. Either you've got some evidence or you're just trolling.

[D-Queued]

Let's just put this nonsense away. Frenchfry has been championing this story but clearly doesn't have the facts to hand to back up his assertions, despite his many references to French language reports which I have no hope of ever understanding (because I'm Scottish, according to RH).

Put up or shut up. No more mincing about with if's and but's. Either you've got some evidence or you're just trolling.

Another troll.

I started the thread. I am its champion. Though I am sure you can spend another week or two veering off-course and arguing about the legitimacty of that as well.

Frenchfry is not championing it. He is trying to actually do you a favor. He is contributing to the thread I started.

I wouldn't bother, of course. Though, at least I have taken you off ignore.

Now, you or even Tom A Fine could have started the thread. That would have been a great way to demonstrate your willingness to truly contribute here. But, no, just here to post nonsense to draw attention away from the hardest of facts about Floyd.

The pattern is well established, and you are not fooling anyone.

Put up or shut up? Try accepting the fact that Floyd is guilty and the ugly part of the story continues to emerge.

That Arnie is implicated as using an alias is disgusting. Let's not even get into the rest of it.

Why hasn't the US media picked it up? Perhaps because Floyd is already a has-been and ate up more than his 15 minutes of fame. The question is, of course, pure red herring. It doesn't matter.

What matters is that Arnie is now involved in something that may have legal implications.

Dave.

[Ali]

... That Arnie is implicated as using an alias is disgusting. Let's not even get into the rest of it.

No, let's get into it ... I thought this was the crux of the matter !

You proudly announce that you initiated this, but try to avoid resolving it ? Typical, unfortunately.

I've yet to see anyone have the balls to say what these reports say without couching them in if's and but's terms. I know what they say. I can read French as easily as I read English. You guy's are skirting around the issue because that's what the reporter does. Despite all the noise, no one here has the confidence to make a categorical statement with regard to these reports.

You present yourself as the champion of this thread ? Grow some balls and tell us what's going down with regard to Dr Baker, without resorting to supposition ... facts, get it ?

This post has been edited by Ali: 25 April 2009 - 09:37 PM