[D-Queued]

edited out personal attack
....

Personal attack after personal attack.

You have, in fact, insulted me repeatedly on these Landis threads.

Does all of this D-Queued bashing really empower your argument?

You called me ignorant. I called you on it. Now you call me an idiot. Can I ask if you are an expert on idiocy?

There is only one consistent theme here.

I can only hope that your expertise on 'people that work on wall street' is not an indication of your other self-appointed expertise.

Dave.

This post has been edited by rational head: 03 July 2008 - 04:58 PM

[Velo]

The media leak came from either the lab or the UCI (not sure if this has been settled). Phonak had many many reporters calling about it. At that point it was out and going to get published even if they denied so they decided to confirm and clarify. They did not initiate it.

The leak was that a Tour rider had tested positive, that's it. The first inkling that it might have been Landis came, iirc, from the Danish media, who noticed that Landis had pulled from a post-Tour criterium, and they put two and two together. Phonak then confirmed that it was indeed Landis.

[smug]

velo, don't get wrapped up in the facts.

[diknutz]

Personal attack after personal attack.

You have, in fact, insulted me repeatedly on these Landis threads.

Does all of this D-Queued bashing really empower your argument?

You called me ignorant. I called you on it. Now you call me an idiot. Can I ask if you are an expert on idiocy?

There is only one consistent theme here.

I can only hope that your expertise on 'people that work on wall street' is not an indication of your other self-appointed expertise.

Dave.

you have to admit dave...you're kind of a punk.

i'm just glad that my bike works in spite of all this...shenaniginery!
although the average high temperature here was 99.4 (Far) for the month of June...usually doesn't get that hot 'til August...I drank 130 oz. of fluid on a three hour ride last week and didn't have to piss once...that can't be good for you.

[frenchfry]

you have to admit dave...you're kind of a punk.

i'm just glad that my bike works in spite of all this...shenaniginery!
although the average high temperature here was 99.4 (Far) for the month of June...usually doesn't get that hot 'til August...I drank 130 oz. of fluid on a three hour ride last week and didn't have to piss once...that can't be good for you.

Maybe all this talk about media "leaks" will be a good stimulous.

I really don't see what difference it would have made if there was in fact a leak. I really enjoyed All the President's Men.

[D-Queued]

you have to admit dave...you're kind of a punk.

i'm just glad that my bike works in spite of all this...shenaniginery!
although the average high temperature here was 99.4 (Far) for the month of June...usually doesn't get that hot 'til August...I drank 130 oz. of fluid on a three hour ride last week and didn't have to piss once...that can't be good for you.

Punk or no, if ORG can get me one of those high-paying Wall Street jobs I would not be offended!

So long as I don't have to push sub-prime debt securities.

Dave.

[MacRoadie]

you have to admit dave...you're kind of a punk.

i'm just glad that my bike works in spite of all this...shenaniginery!
although the average high temperature here was 99.4 (Far) for the month of June...usually doesn't get that hot 'til August...I drank 130 oz. of fluid on a three hour ride last week and didn't have to piss once...that can't be good for you.

Just make sure you stay well hydrificated....

[ZigZagged]

i think it would be fascinating if a clean rider could really ride a doped up peloton off of his wheel like that.

My post wasn't really related to Floyd's innocence or guilt, just what an athlete who appeals an AAF has to deal with- pretty much the SHAFT as far as I can tell, deserved or not.

But to your point, I've been thinking about the same thing. What I wonder more than anything else is how a rider can do such a thing since doping- by most best guesses- has been so common in the peloton since the mid '90's until hopefully this year. (Not that it's gone away suddenly, but evidence suggests that it has less of a foothold and aura of acceptability among riders and teams of late.)
What I specifically wonder is was that the day that everyone else rode clean? Was that the day Valverde's buddy Pereiro (ex-Phonak), the pre-Damsgaard CSC boys, T-Mobile's guys, and all the rest whom people assume to be dopers decided to forego transfusions and other methods of assistance? It would have seemed like a day to bring your best game being the last BIG mountain day, so I wonder what could have made the rest of the leaders go clean, operating under the assumption that doping is always THE KEY to superior performance? Explain that, Mr. Professor. I wanna know why they all found religion that day except for Floyd.

All that said, I don't believe every great athletic performance is based on doping. S17 aside, I suspect that athletes sometimes perform exceptional feats on their own power. But at this point I have to concede we'll never know in most instances because the ADA's are so ineffective. Hell, it seems that from the Damsgaard story that they don't even want to be effective. And on topic, that's why I think "Bad science..." could be an informative symposium.

[D-Queued]

... Explain that, Mr. Professor. I wanna know why they all found religion that day except for Floyd.

...

Who says that they found religion?

One of the classic myths about doping is that it levels the playing field. It doesn't.

The other riders may have been more concerned about balancing intake with likelihood of getting caught, especially given that this was S17 and not S1 or S2.

Perhaps some were more willing to 'throw it all on the line' than others.

What Floyd was able to do - while doped - was not only break well free, but solo the whole damn day holding off some pretty good riders on a final classification determing stage who would have at least some ability to utilize the protection of drafting -- a clear benefit even at the speeds most of these guys climb at.

When one thinks of great performances, that blows things like Bob Beamon's two extra feet so far out of the water that some could have interpreted it as extra-terrestrial.

Not only was he the first long jumper in history to reach 28 feet. He also became the first to reach 29 feet. He shattered the world record by an unbelievable 21 ¾ inches. When the distance was given by stadium announcers, Beamon was so excited and emotionally drained that doctors claim he suffered a "cataplectic seizure."

Dave.

[diknutz]

Just make sure you stay well hydrificated....

well i try...i normally have to hang it over the side every 45 minutes or so.

dave...you don't want a wall street job...doing laps around central park would get so boring.

maybe it's just the landis pr machine working its magic on me(that's a joke btw), but there is no satisfaction in the ruling...it just doesn't seem 100% conclusive...and along the lines of some other posts in this thread, floyd did whip-ass on the road...if he had an ace up his sleeve (or in his shorts?), i'm confident he wasn't the only one...doesn't mean anything though, with or without his name officially in the books...

to be honest, i'm still stuck on the irms test...it's always touted that it found "synthetic testosterone", but all it really found is an isotope of one of the most commonly occuring elements in the universe...and i can't believe that any lab really understands all of the possible ways that that isotope could appear in someone's blood, they only seem to know that if he took synth. T, then that isotope would be there...kind of like saying, "if someone is murdered, then there will be a body...oh, look here, we've found a body so there must have been a murder."

i'm sure a scientist could explain it though.

[frenchfry]

Who says that they found religion?

One of the classic myths about doping is that it levels the playing field. It doesn't.

The other riders may have been more concerned about balancing intake with likelihood of getting caught, especially given that this was S17 and not S1 or S2.

Perhaps some were more willing to 'throw it all on the line' than others.

What Floyd was able to do - while doped - was not only break well free, but solo the whole damn day holding off some pretty good riders on a final classification determing stage who would have at least some ability to utilize the protection of drafting -- a clear benefit even at the speeds most of these guys climb at.

When one thinks of great performances, that blows things like Bob Beamon's two extra feet so far out of the water that some could have interpreted it as extra-terrestrial.

Not only was he the first long jumper in history to reach 28 feet. He also became the first to reach 29 feet. He shattered the world record by an unbelievable 21 ¾ inches. When the distance was given by stadium announcers, Beamon was so excited and emotionally drained that doctors claim he suffered a "cataplectic seizure."

Dave.

Floyd has shown us that he is crazy reckless. Could be that he thought he had nothing to lose and went for it, just only got caught for the T. I have trouble believing he did what he did after a major bonk with only a few shots of JD and a patch, but he didn't get caught for anything else so only speculation.

What kind of elite athlete would drink whisky in the middle of a muti-stage race anyway. Didn't Mr. Fine explain how this would improve performance.

[one-mint-julich]

to be honest, i'm still stuck on the irms test...it's always touted that it found "synthetic testosterone", but all it really found is an isotope of one of the most commonly occuring elements in the universe...

The scientists said they found the oldest known human ancestor, but all they really found was an isotope of one of the most commonly occurring elements in the universe...

[D-Queued]

The scientists said they found the oldest known human ancestor, but all they really found was an isotope of one of the most commonly occurring elements in the universe...

They found Adam?

Dave.

[Ali]

Forget it, wrong forum.

This post has been edited by Ali's Dog: 04 July 2008 - 08:03 AM

[ZigZagged]

Who says that they found religion?

One of the classic myths about doping is that it levels the playing field. It doesn't.

The other riders may have been more concerned about balancing intake with likelihood of getting caught, especially given that this was S17 and not S1 or S2.

Perhaps some were more willing to 'throw it all on the line' than others....

It just puzzles me that one guy is supposed to have done it so much better than the rest, or that any given rider who has an exceptional ride is tagged as the doper which means to the cynic that he must have gotten his regimen better that day than all the others. Or acted in a more risky manner.

How would you know whether or not it levels the playing field, btw? So much of this is in the shadows, so on what do you base that assertion? Could be true- the best doctors give the best medicine. But a lot of the other guys had dedicated doctors of whom we now know. It simply amuses me that a great ride- not necessarily S17, I've seen assumptions put forth about Schleck on Alp d'Huez- is a doped ride to the cynical eye. Makes me wonder why you bother to watch....

[D-Queued]

...How would you know whether or not it levels the playing field, btw? ....

Hi Zig,

Perhaps I secretly wish I could offer myself as a guinea pig!

There is tons of material on DPF about this. For one thing, there are high responders and non responders.

For another, you can adjust training to match or enhance response.

For yet another, it is intuitively obvious that more money will buy you a better tailored program with more access to more doping agents and more sophisticated roostertails with more sophisticated anti-doping counter-measures.

Finally, there may even be race strategy tailoring to doping products. If you expect strategy A, then you follow doping procedure A1. If you expect B, then B1. This would be analogous to what cassette you throw on. How many track guys quickly change gearing when they look at what their competition is riding?

There are also in-race enhancements. I know from eyewitnesses that goodie pills were being passed out from team cars in large races as recently as two years ago.

To suggest it is as simple as popping the same red pill as everyone else is clearly an oversimplification. Pharmacology is quite a science.

Dave.

Edit to add:

Roostertails -- that language adjustment always makes me laugh.

This post has been edited by D-Queued: 03 July 2008 - 10:39 PM

[ZigZagged]

Exactly right. The truth can never be known. Over-simplification is a route to nowhere. Nothing can or should be assumed. 'Nuf said.

[TFF]

Exactly right. The truth can never be known. Over-simplification is a route to nowhere. Nothing can or should be assumed. 'Nuf said.

Also know that there are many who debate this who do not assume nearly enough. There are studies, several posted in other threads here, that show the dramatic increase in performance for riders using doping methods. Interestingly, the studies I know of (I have posted at least 3 before, and there are others. I am going on vacation in about 20 minutes, so maybe I will post later) only study the effects of a single substance or possibly a combanation of a small few. You have to know from the testimony of those who have opened up that the regimin is much more complex, and I am sure much more effective.

Hiding under a blanket of denial regarding the pervasiveness of doping in the last decade may make the sport more fun to watch, but it still ignores reality. If you care to look, you will see that a non-doping cyclist has no chance of beating one who dopes. It is a fantasy to believe otherwise. I love cycling, that is why I care and wish to push at greater acceptance of this fact. In doing so, I hope in small part to create a cleaner sport. I want to be in awe of performances. At this point, I find that hard to do. I didn't destroy that, riders like Floyd, Tyler, Heras, Basso, Vino, Kash, Ras, Rumsas, Frigo...well, you get the point.

[zekeydekey]

So you're guessing. Try page 80 here:

http://arniebakercycling.com/floyd/book_ma...fense%202.0.pdf

His power output was not extraordinary. S17 was not about a superhuman effort. It was about the bad tactics of the other teams in letting him go too far. Liggett and Sherwin had repeatedly said this.

Oh. Phil and Paul. Right. They've never propagated any PR spin, legends, stories or falsehoods while they are trying to fill air in a 5 hour telecast.

His efforts may not have been superhuman taken in isolation, but they were extraordinary. His recovery was superhuman. And I think only Sastre climed the Joux Plane faster, after they were all in the pack all day, not chasing at 100%.

Takes little away from how bad-ass and monumental the attack and ride were. But could he have done it without recovery assistance? I say no.

[diknutz]

The scientists said they found the oldest known human ancestor, but all they really found was an isotope of one of the most commonly occurring elements in the universe...

please don't oversimplify...bone fragments offer much more evidence than simply the carbon that's in them...i'm sure you know this though. i suppose you're refering to carbon-dating...a little different isn't it? carbon dating doesn't tell you that it's carbon from a hominid...only how old the sample is...the fact that it's from a hominid is determined by other methods(anthropology), not the carbon-dating...what other methods are used in irms testing to tell us that the carbon in question comes from syntyhetic T, and not somewhere else?

i really am interested if you've got the patience...