[sundaymorning]

We discussed Floyd's 2006 TdF hematocrit and hemoglobin test results, and what they may mean,in this thread. Now that his team, through the diligent folks at TBV, has released a good bit more documentation, we can look at more extensive blood testing records. USADA's post hearing proposed findings provides them:



I think the reticulocyte results from the 2005 TdF are very interesting. A low reticulocyte result can be indicative of a blood transfusion. His reticulocyte number plummeted between the pre-Tour testing and the second rest day, the 18th. It rose a bit by the final check, taken before the second to last stage. His stimulation index, which combines reticulocytes and hemoglobin to study possible manipulation, is also fairly high at 113 on 7/18/2005. It's also interesting that his reticulocytes were always higher in the beginning of the year. They were low before the 2005 Vuelta, Floyd dropped out during the first week.

I still think the 2006 TdF hematocrit looks funny. The 48.2 number comes from the first rest day, before any mountain stages.

If you'd like to take an in depth look at what the numbers may mean, this is a great reference. It's bylined by the UCI's medical chief, Mario Zorzoli. You'll find that there's definitely a certain amount of ambiguity in these numbers (which is echoed in the USADA Proposed Findings), but I think this figure makes a compelling case:



You'll see that reticulocytes plunged when the suspected change from large EPO doses to transfusions occurred, and stimulation index rose.

[Kiwi]

I still think the 2006 TdF hematocrit looks funny. The 48.2 number comes from the first rest day, before any mountain stages.

Very interesting indeed, especially in light of what Damsgard said with regard to Rasmussen's published values (mentioned in the other thread): "The haemoglobin values of the seven CSC riders [taking part in the Tour de France] dropped by 12 to 22 percent, which is completely normal. That the opposite happens, that the values rise during a hard race like the Tour de France, indicates that there has been a blood transfusion."

[swimyouidiot]

SM, I can't really defend the details here, but couldn't Floyd's use of that goofy, homemade "altitude tent" have affected all these numbers? I know an altitude tent would increase his reticulocytes and hemoglobin. In 2005 maybe his body was used to the altitude tent and so his reticulocytes went down when he no longer was using it. It would certainly explain why his reticulocytes were always higher at the beginning of the year.

As for 2006, I think the significance of the hematocrit numbers are in the eye of the beholder. I think we have talked before about how much the hematocrit can vary from test to test. It is not used directly for doping control, right? Certainly it doesn't stand alone as evidence against Floyd.

Peace

[D-Queued]

If altitude tents worked that quickly and that dramatically, I would think they would be all over Floyd for a testimonial.

Might even offer a big donation to the FFF for it.

Dave.

[duckstrap]

I thought we were talking about testosterone. Are you trying to say that Floyd was using EPO or blood doping in 2005, and that that is relevant to the current charge of using testosterone in 2006? I don't understand the relevance of these data.

[fab]

I thought we were talking about testosterone. Are you trying to say that Floyd was using EPO or blood doping in 2005, and that that is relevant to the current charge of using testosterone in 2006? I don't understand the relevance of these data.

Maybe if Floyd was using blood doping in 2005 then he lied during the hearing... then he could have lied for T again !

[Whareagle]

If altitude tents worked that quickly and that dramatically, I would think they would be all over Floyd for a testimonial.

Might even offer a big donation to the FFF for it.

Dave.

DQ, I think he made his own out of a cement pipe and some plexiglass, and it cost him maybe $800. The CAT's go for about $4k.

Another question - was the data compiled here a result of the field tests, or the more thorough tests from static labs? There's some debate about just how good the portable tests really are in yielding both accurate and consistent results.

[D-Queued]

DQ, I think he made his own out of a cement pipe and some plexiglass, and it cost him maybe $800. The CAT's go for about $4k.

Another question - was the data compiled here a result of the field tests, or the more thorough tests from static labs? There's some debate about just how good the portable tests really are in yielding both accurate and consistent results.

Ah, that is why people bought his book! The anarchist's DIY manual for altitude tents.

Also, why does it seem so deja vu that the discussion would turn to how reliable the tests are?

Dave.

[sundaymorning]

I thought we were talking about testosterone. Are you trying to say that Floyd was using EPO or blood doping in 2005, and that that is relevant to the current charge of using testosterone in 2006? I don't understand the relevance of these data.

This is a message board discussion, not a courtroom. Besides, the table I posted was taken directly from a hearing document Landis has decided to make public.

It's my opinion that there's a whole lot of smoke around Landis beyond just the testosterone results. Questions about Postal, the Vaughters IM story, him bringing Freddy Viane to Phonak, the whole Phonak legacy (Hamilton and Perez positive for transfusions. The Buffalo and Botero linked to Fuentes and blood doping). Throw in the extensive doping programs which come to light with a tremendously greater frequency than just testosterone use. Then we have these blood values. The 2006 TdF results have already been publically questioned by an expert, Ashenden. So yeah, I think he was likely blood doping. That's my opinion.

This post has been edited by sundaymorning: 13 November 2007 - 12:54 AM

[Whareagle]

Suspect, j'accuse.

(yawn)

And until you come up with some sound science, most of which was presented is being thoroughly trashed in other, more mature forums, you're only going to have yourself to play with, I mean, talk to, I mean, convince.

Carry on, lemmings.

[rational head]

I thought we were talking about testosterone. ............ I don't understand the relevance of these data.

Duck, you’re partially right, Floyd's blood values are not a direct evidence. Yet Floyd’s hematology has immediate corroborative relevance to the testosterone anti-doping case against him.

It’s an irrefutable medical fact that testosterone can raise hemoglobin and hematocrit levels. This medical fact was also admitted by Floyd’s own expert, Dr. Emory. On the basis of this hard medical fact, USADA was repeatedly seeking the values via discovery. Floyd’s legal team at all costs tried to prevent USADA’s access to the values.

The Panel finally directed Floyd’s doctor, Dr Demir, to produce them and they were included in the official exhibit of the case. Unfortunately, it was too late into the proceedings and USADA could not develop it into a strong corroborative evidence.

Sundaymorning reproduced the values here as they do represent the new and interesting discussion topic (unlike recycling the old stuff we find in a parallel thread). Floyd's values are particularly interesting in light of voluntarily released similar values by Rasmussen. I personally find the two sets fascinating both in terms of what they tell and how they became public.

The Panel finds that the UCI blood test results, combine with Respondent's efforts to conceal those results from USDAD, create an independent inference that Respondent was using testosterone during the Tour.

The Panel also finds that Respondent’s failure to provide the blood results requested by USADA, is further corroborating evidence that he was attempting to cover up his doping.

[rational head]

..............
You'll see that reticulocytes plunged when the suspected change from large EPO doses to transfusions occurred, and stimulation index rose.

I agree, the reticulocytes picture in Floyd looks suspicious. Admittedly, they are considerably below the 2% red flag but their variability is not very consistent with the normal negative feedback cycle nor with experimental data variability reported in the literature.

[Roadent]

This is a message board discussion, not a courtroom. Besides, the table I posted was taken directly from a hearing document Landis has decided to make public.

It's my opinion that there's a whole lot of smoke around Landis beyond just the testosterone results. Questions about Postal, the Vaughters IM story, him bringing Freddy Viane to Phonak, the whole Phonak legacy (Hamilton and Perez positive for transfusions. The Buffalo and Botero linked to Fuentes and blood doping). Throw in the extensive doping programs which come to light with a tremendously greater frequency than just testosterone use. Then we have these blood values. The 2006 TdF results have already been publically questioned by an expert, Ashenden. So yeah, I think he was likely blood doping. That's my opinion.

Yep... guess I'm a lemming....

[admt]

Yep... guess I'm a lemming....

I'm a lemon too...

[OAR]

Yep... guess I'm a lemming....

am I a lemming also?????

[Burkni]

am I a lemming also?????

I am the walrus ... wait a minute ...

[Steve in ATL]

Wait, let me get my shiny metal boxes to pack you up into...

[Chris E]

am I a lemming also?????

Doesn't it go:

I'm a lemming.
He's a lemming.
She's a lemming.
We all are lemmings.
Wouldn't you like to be a lemming, too?

[swimyouidiot]

Sundaymorning reproduced the values here as they do represent the new and interesting discussion topic (unlike recycling the old stuff we find in a parallel thread).

RH, that parenthetical comment is so unfair!

It was only a few days ago that we learned what exactly was injected into Floyd's hip. Before three or four days ago there had never been one post here or anywhere else about what the effect of methylprednisolone or dexamethasone could be on Floyd's tests. It is NOT the same issue as if the injection had been cortisone, which was discussed some here.

I know you made up your mind about Floyd long ago, but is it too much to ask that you at least consider new evidence? I don't dismiss this hematocrit argument out of hand (although I do think that it is of secondary importance since it isn't even what Floyd is charged with, and the "altitude tent" can affect these numbers). You know, given your knowledge, you might even be helpful in pointing out specifically why this methylprednisolone and dexamethasone issue is wholly misguided, or might just have some legitimacy. Recycled old stuff? How can you ignore 22 compounds that were absolutely in Floyd's system, could have strongly negative CIRs, and to the best of our public knowledge, are entirely unaccounted for?

Peace

[D-Queued]

I think I liked TAF's drunken mice better. Chasing shadows is tiring.

Dave.