[Kiwi]

They can't catch the guilty, they can't do the science well enough to convince anyone they are doing a good job in the lab, and they win by presumption.

Hold on, didn't we just see a process where a guilty rider was caught? Sure there's room for improvement in the system - more tests, better tests, maybe uniform standards - but we've just seen a process where, despite a number of complicated issues being raised, the arbitration panel found - on balance - that Landis doped, with the decision to be vetted by the CAS.

How did 'they' win by presumption?

[jr.]

pretty much the arbs said so, the lab squeaked on the IRMS, do you think that if the arbs had felt that the test was properly conducted and the science conclusive, they would have included the warning that this time you got by but you might not win the next time. They held themselves to a warning, a question about standard setting and presumptions, gave USADA a guilty verdict, quoting science conclusions that caused OMJ to scratch his head and argue with RH, still left issues such as can one metabolite move that radically differently than the others (based on one non-peer reviewed study, but, hey, if it was reported it must be true right?). On balance they felt convinced Landis doped because several "experts" including their own probably (who shouldn'tbe "testifying" to them in explaining the science if he's not under oath and subject to cross) were convinced the overall picture looked more like doping than not (credible enough evidence in most circmstances though Catlin pretty much convinced me that he believed that Landis doped because the overall picture didn't look typical of innocence, but not because Science as applied had convinced him that Landis doped) because they were all that comfortable with the science as demonstrated at the hearing. Because the tests are presumed validly performed and Landis couldn't point to a rule violaton by the lab that caused the result to be positive they found him guilty. One of the arguments they dismissed because, well, its not a conspiracy, was I believe an intentional evasion on their part of evidence that bothered them greatly, even though they didn't think it showed intent to frame Landis. Convenient that they didn't consider that evidence in light of the real standard, did a failure in test procedure likely lead to a positive, instead of concluding the evidence didn't prove a conspiracy. I would very much like to hear the answer based on the real standard.

[Velo]

eh, forget the arbs - I'll take Stuart O'Grady's word for it:

LIZ HAYES: Would anyone have picked that — that the winner of last year's race was a drug cheat?

STUART O'GRADY: I would have because I was there with him that day when he was in that breakaway. I was actually 13 minutes ahead of him and he caught us on his own and then he basically rode us all off the wheel.

LIZ HAYES: So you did think at the time that was odd?

STUART O'GRADY: I thought that was impossible, what he did. I'm not a bad bike rider and, you know, he made me look like a little kid.

[smug]

eh, forget the arbs - I'll take Stuart O'Grady's word for it:

LIZ HAYES: Would anyone have picked that — that the winner of last year's race was a drug cheat?

STUART O'GRADY: I would have because I was there with him that day when he was in that breakaway. I was actually 13 minutes ahead of him and he caught us on his own and then he basically rode us all off the wheel.

LIZ HAYES: So you did think at the time that was odd?

STUART O'GRADY: I thought that was impossible, what he did. I'm not a bad bike rider and, you know, he made me look like a little kid.

come on, velo, open your mind.

[Chris E]

STUART O'GRADY: I thought that was impossible, what he did. I'm not a bad bike rider and, you know, he made me look like a little kid.

........

Then the FL brigade, they came out to defend their guy.
Is it the French, the lab, the beer, there must be something the rubes will buy!

And then that Canadian from WADA, I think his name is Pound.
He started mouthing off in the media, slinging accusations all around.

Tainted by the press, their guy FL would appeal.
"If we can only get this decided on American soil", they said, "the world will see his ride was real".

But alas it wouldn't be so, since USADA is corrupt as well.
Was there any impartial judge for their hero Floyd, a judge that would buy the BS they sell?

So it is now down to the CAS, the last chance for the doubters to know the truth.
One last chance to smear it in the face of smug, Velo, VF, FF, and all the other uncouth.

By now his career is probably finished, but on FFF and their faith will Floyd always lean.
For there will always be rubes who believe, rubes who believe in the legend of stage 17.

[Ali]

come on, velo, open your mind.

You presume too much, I fear ...

[CAMPYBOB]

Then the FL brigade, they came out to defend their guy.
Is it the French, the lab, the beer, there must be something the rubes will buy!

And then that Canadian from WADA, I think his name is Pound.
He started mouthing off in the media, slinging accusations all around.

Tainted by the press, their guy FL would appeal.
"If we can only get this decided on American soil", they said, "the world will see his ride was real".

But alas it wouldn't be so, since USADA is corrupt as well.
Was there any impartial judge for their hero Floyd, a judge that would buy the BS they sell?

So it is now down to the CAS, the last chance for the doubters to know the truth.
One last chance to smear it in the face of smug, Velo, VF, FF, and all the other uncouth.

By now his career is probably finished, but on FFF and their faith will Floyd always lean.
For there will always be rubes who believe, rubes who believe in the legend of stage 17.

THAT'S FUNNY!

america has a new poet laureate!

[Velo]

You presume too much, I fear ...

Hey, that wasn't me, that was O'Grady. But I'm sure he doesn't know what he's talking about either, not having your insight.

This post has been edited by Velo: 18 October 2007 - 03:01 AM

[formerlyfit]

So it is now down to the CAS, the last chance for the doubters to know the truth.
One last chance to smear it in the face of smug, Velo, VF, FF, and all the other uncouth.

I'm honoured if I'm the FF in that villains list, although Frenchfry seems to be among the unenlightened also.

[Velo]

So it is now down to the CAS, the last chance for the doubters to know the truth.One last chance to smear it in the face of smug, Velo, VF, FF, and all the other uncouth.

Damn it, after all that work all I have to show for it is to be upstaged by smug yet again!?

[D-Queued]

Damn it, after all that work all I have to show for it is to be upstaged by smug yet again!?

What are you complaining about. I used to headline these lists. Elevated and singled out by the likes of dbrower. Now I have apparently dropped so low that I didn't even get an honorable mention.

Even FF got in there and I didn't. Heck, his handle even says he is French and we all hate the French. Right?

I'm going to report a union greivance.

Dave.

[frenchfry]

I'm honoured if I'm the FF in that villains list, although Frenchfry seems to be among the unenlightened also.

I'm more than willing to share the honor.

If supporting clean cycling and the athletes themselves is being a villain, I must admit being a bit confused!

[ZigZagged]

...If supporting clean cycling and the athletes themselves is being a villain, I must admit being a bit confused!

Though I'm surely not included on that list of villains, Fry's statement speaks to my point of view as well. Seems to me that whatever ideological side one is on here, they want the same end results.

[D-Queued]

Though I'm surely not included on that list of villains, Fry's statement speaks to my point of view as well. Seems to me that whatever ideological side one is on here, they want the same end results.

I would like to agree with you on that, as there is a broad consensus, but there have been more than a few (goldenear jumps to mind) that have been anything but encouraging of that view and who would be anything but part of that.

Moreover, as we have witnessed over and over, doping is so entrenched the double-speak is deafening.

Dave.

[ChrisH]

Newspapers, like other businesses, have one major goal that determines most of their decisions: money. If a story sells, they will print it, unless some other powerful entity can make them a counter offer they can’t refuse. L’Equipe published Armstrong’s B sample findings not because the French hate Americans, nor even because their “judgment” of us was “colored”, but because they knew the story would sell papers. The story sells not because the French love to read about an American being taken down, but because all followers of cycling--French and otherwise—are intrigued that a 7-time champion of any nationality might have doped. To suggest there were other, more nationalistic reasons is giving the media far more credit for being able to transcend crude materialism than they deserve.

Did not a french spectator punch Merckx in the liver when he was attempting to break Anquetil's then record of 5 Tour wins? Fortunately, such crude nationalism is a much lesser threat nowadays, yet nationalistic bias is still rampant. (That bias is countered with facts, preferably sourced, and not by, for example, pretending that it's impolite to call a person from France a frenchmen or simply french.) Nationalistic bias significantly affected the testing IMO.

[Velo]

Nationalistic bias significantly affected the testing IMO.

Goes both ways - nationalistic bias significantly affects your view of anything Lance-related, for eg. IMO.

[frenchfry]

Did not a french spectator punch Merckx in the liver when he was attempting to break Anquetil's then record of 5 Tour wins? Fortunately, such crude nationalism is a much lesser threat nowadays, yet nationalistic bias is still rampant. (That bias is countered with facts, preferably sourced, and not by, for example, pretending that it's impolite to call a person from France a frenchmen or simply french.) Nationalistic bias significantly affected the testing IMO.

This kind of post leaves me speechless. Enough said.

[ChrisH]

Goes both ways - nationalistic bias significantly affects your view of anything Lance-related, for eg. IMO.

An opinion which has very often been proven to be wrong, but don't let the 7+1 official Tour victories, Postal/Discovery's near spotless record, and other facts get in the way of that opinion. Anyways, it's getting easier to see which members have mixed nationalities and which of those is the dominant one.

[frenchfry]

An opinion which has very often proven to be wrong, but don't let the 7+1 official Tour victories, Postal/Discovery's near spotless record, and other facts get in the way of that opinion. Anyways, it's getting easier to see who here has mixed nationalities and which one is the dominant one.

"near spotless record"

I sense you are slipping ChrisH, seems to me not too long ago the record was spotless

[D-Queued]

An opinion which has very often proven to be wrong, but don't let the 7+1 official Tour victories, Postal/Discovery's near spotless record, and other facts get in the way of that opinion. Anyways, it's getting easier to see who here has mixed nationalities and which one is the dominant one.

Touting that which is so evidently evidence!

Love that +1. Good thing they are going to Astana. Maybe you can add +2 when that oh-so-clean team wins next year.

Actually, my response for you is already captured in my signature. I am only replying to give you another opportunity to read it.

Perhaps I should updated it and add Oscar's salbutamol positives to the list (1 tests positive in the same Tour he receives the yellow for after another tests positive and is stripped), along with Vino's positive when he was the odds-on favorite this year and was stripped of two stage victories (1 yellow odds-on favorite tests positive in the Tour and is stripped of tour stage wins, ejected and banned).

I think that would tally to 6 dopers in yellow, or effectively in yellow, from all of the activities just this year alone. I think the most ever yellow jerseys in one tour was 8. Must be some sort of record.

Funny, how 6 is the same number as all those EPO positive samples.

Well, if it comes to records, I suppose my six can be beat by your seven.

Dave.